SUBJECT: WGA CIRCLES THREAD EXPANDS TO COMPUSERVE FILE: UFO1209 PART 3 to a thread in the "Science" forum about SDI origins for some of the crop events. I'm the uploader of the original CIRCLE.TXT, which is in the Paranormal Lib. 10 here. It's the original thread from the "Science & Health" forum of the (members only) BBS of the Writers' Guild of Amercia, West (WGA), Los Angeles. That file, plus the CIS thread that followed, called CIRCIS.TXT, are in both the SPACE and ASTRONOMY libraries 17, "New Uploads." Another volume is yet to come. The thread continued - especially on ASTRONOMY/Satellite Obseration. If you're aware of a thread in any location not mentioned above, I'd like to hear of it. The thread kept going after CIRCIS.TXT, and has reached quite a level of development. I'll be uploading a "a second volume" of the CIS thread as soon as some people have a chance to get the last word. If you or others here haven't already seen it, I encourage a look at CIRCLE.TXT and CIRCIS.TXT. I also apolgize for their length, but the issues raised are of some importance. I hope you and others will check it out. Bob #: 93625 S3/Satellite Observing 07-Nov-91 22:31:26 Sb: CIRCS2.TXT (CIRCLE.TXT) Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: All CIRCS2.TXT, the continuation of the CIS thread (CIRCIS.TXT), which was generated by CIRCLE.TXT, is currently in SPACE Lib. 17. I hated to end it with my own response to some comments, not wanting to steal the last word. If the thread continues, it will be resent as soon as a less seemingly self-serving stopping point is reached. My apologies to any participants who may feel they were left dangling. The upload contains directions to where the thread is, to allow overlap before the next forum pruning. For the sake of those among "All" who haven't tuned in, this refers to the "crop circle" thread, debating the possibility of (some) crop events as being artifacts of satellite borne laser/maser/other SDI (or something) experiments. Bob #: 190998 S10/Paranormal Issues 08-Nov-91 20:17:05 Sb: #190159-#Crop Circles Fm: Stephen Ryland 72345,366 To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 Terry- Yes, I wonder how many may be crop marks. If you look at a dense site in Britian you will see many crop marks identifying buried earthworks, etc. Also, many times the difference in soil type along the earthworks or slight elevation differences will cause the grain to grow higher, sometimes in positive or negative crop marks. When heavy winds some, this higher grain is knocked down-this is a well known and studied phenomenon. Of course, this by no means explains everything, but may explain some. Steve There is 1 Reply. #: 191229 S10/Paranormal Issues 09-Nov-91 07:36:19 Sb: #190998-Crop Circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Stephen Ryland 72345,366 Stephen, I wanted to acknowledge your thoughts about the effects of buried earthworks, re (some) crop circle events. As a result I scanned the available photographs, and see a few which may be just that. I suspect that when this is relatively sorted out, some archaeologists will be applying for excavation grants on a few of them. Only a few, however. The formations which triggered the SDI connection, however, all formed at night, with sharp outlines, relatively quickly, in the absence of wind, and clearly placed with precision within the fields. No incursions into adjoining roads, under fences, or anything like that. Your thoughts may well account for some, however. (Where's that grant application manual I had lying around here...) Bob #: 191143 S10/Paranormal Issues 09-Nov-91 01:28:50 Sb: #189964-Crop Circles Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 Hi Bob, Yes, CIRCLE.TXT is the file I was referring to. I found it very interesting and informative. I don't really know what to make of the circles and have been trying to keep an open mind on them. The SDI angle is as good an explanation for some of the circles as I have read yet. I have always felt that there is more capability to SDI than the government wants us to think about. The umbrella against nuke warheads was just a way for the government to get the funding it needed (shades of the Willie Horton scare tactics). I have not read the CIRCIS.TXT file yet. Is it in the Paranormal library also? I was unaware that anyone else on CIS was talking about the circles until I read the CIRCLE.TXT file. Thanks for uploading it. Have you pulled together the circles threads from this forum yet (is that what CIRCIS.TXT is?)? If not, I could go back over my message files and pull together what I have for you. BTW, I have no problem with the size of the files, but you might want to break them down to 60-70K parts. A lot of people can't work with files that big for one reason or another. Terry #: 191144 S10/Paranormal Issues 09-Nov-91 01:29:04 Sb: #190158-Crop Circles Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405 To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 Terry, Congrats on your "graduation". Glad to hear your doing better by the day. It was nice of Anne to set the treader up the way she did. A perscription pool!! No wonder my insurance rates are going up . Hope the weather gets better so that you can use it again before next spring. Please tell Rex and Carol that I think they have done an excellent research job on Gulf Breeze and that I hope they can reach a understanding with Bruce M that will be satisfactory to both. When you get that copy of "Soldier of Fortune" please let me know the issue, as I would like to read it. Yes, Chorost's ideas about the megaliths and crop marks was also a good point. I had a 3x5 foot crop rectangle in my backyard a couple of years ago. Couldn't figure out what caused it till I dug down about a foot and found a old septic tank. It must have been put in back in the late 50's when this end of town was just that, the end of town :). I think what we are going to find out about the circles is that they are a combination of many different causes. Crop marks, hoaxes, weather and natural phenomena, a couple of UFO's, possibly SDI testing and who knows what else. What really amazes me is that so much is happening in such a small area, relatively speaking. Keep getting healthy, Terry #: 191206 S10/Paranormal Issues 09-Nov-91 06:21:31 Sb: #191143-#Crop Circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405 Hi back, Terry. Actually both Terrys'. I was very pleased at your reaction to CIRCLE.TXT. With the history of the megalith's, Ley lines, et al - the site really was made to order. I found the comments about delayed reactions based on prior sites to be very evocative, and I would include a few in particular as among "most of the above." The reason I narrow it to a few is the precision with which some of the most spectacular align with current furrows, and include a directional reference (Barbury is a good example) to true north. Also among the more recent ones is a copy of an Anasazi (11th century Arizona) petroglyph. The impression was that somebody made a mistake or was kibbitzing. Surreal... The CIRCLE.TXT unfortunately had to be kept intact, since it had an internal continuity which we (the participants) agreed needed to be preserved, as the debate left many with more flexible attitudes than those with which they began. It was happening on a BBS of professional writers, and the development of attitudes and the continuity of the thread seemed seamless. CIRCLE.TXT, as long as it is, astonished us by the number of downloads it did receive, from the ISSUES/PARANORMAL Lib. 10 (46, the last time I looked) and more from SPACE and ASTRONOMY Libraries 17 (New Uploads), both of which accepted it. CIRCIS.TXT is the compiled CompuServe thread which ensued, and CIRCS2.TXT is it's continuation. Both are also in SPACE and ASTRONOMY Libraries 17. CIRCS2.TXT is the shortest, as we are painfully aware of the expense of downloading long files. We knew this theory was (publicly) non-existent elsewhere, and that it ought to made accessible on a global basis. Interestingly, the UKFORUM declined it, and the thread there ended with a lot of empty headers. Hmm. As it turned out, many of the major contributors were in the UK, having obtained it from the other libraries. [More] There is 1 Reply. #: 191207 S10/Paranormal Issues 09-Nov-91 06:21:46 Sb: #191206-Crop Circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) [Continued] I only wish I could have included private correspondence I received from the UK. Some of it was from researchers at the sites, who were very generous in sending (often at hefty postal rates) surveys of the best sites, and a sense of the scene in general. Even those who favored more paranormal scenarios than "Earth Wars" were very forthcoming. A collective denial seems to have set in in the UK among the majority, which is understandable. It can't be easy to deal with the idea that a potential Manhattan project of the 21st Century is entering puberty overhead. For the record, as messages in the files attest, I am not a UFO debunker. Quite the contrary. But I do see the UFO aspect as helping to confound the rules of evidence, by design. I do know that the U.S. Military can simulate a UFO with specially designed helicopters - made for that purpose - when they need to do an on-site visit under observation. Also, as a pilot, though I haven't seen one, I have heard commercial air traffic in which pilots called ground facilities for radar verifications of visual sightings, and always got them. There would follow a discussion whether to bother with the hassle of a report. There was an eery sense of "routineness" every one of the four or five times I heard such dialogues. The most interesting one I overheard involved a radar operator at ATC say, "your E.T. just made a right turn at mach 10..." The pilot said, "I just lost visual contact." The response from radar... "well, we still have it." If the SDI scenario can be laid to rest, and we tried very hard to shoot it down, only to have each attempt give it new life... we can scientifically move on to more hypotheses. Nobody would rest more easy than would I. Bob #: 191228 S10/Paranormal Issues 09-Nov-91 07:36:12 Sb: Crop circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405 Terry, just a compulsive addendum to answer a question you asked that I didn't answer about the thread files. CIRCIS.TXT and CIRCS2.TXT make a valiant effort to compile a thread which had a problem finding a home. Some of it is here, but much/most of it migrated to SPACE/Extraterrestrials (S7), and then, when it started to get attention from scientists - an exposure and devil's advocacy which was much desired - it continued on ASTRO/Satellite Observing (S3). If anybody knows of any traffic elsewhere, I missed it and would appreciate directions. BTW, CIRCIS.TXT and CIRCS2.TXT are not in Lib. 10, here, just in SPACE and ASTRO libs. 17. Bob y#: 191405 S10/Paranormal Issues 09-Nov-91 16:29:34 Sb: #191207-Crop Circles Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 In June 1988 I was visiting a college friend (who had, like me, started out as a physics major; he went into programming, I into, uh, English) and his girlfriend in Huntsville. A former high-level mil-industrial complex R&D manager (a promoted engineer) delivered an address at the Huntsville campus of U of 'Bama (or 'Bama State?--I sense one of the circulating skeptics is gonna be down my throat in a second, and am too tired, frankly, to care right now) in which he outlined his reasons for believing that SDI, from its inception, has been a project devoted to developing an _offensive_ space-based weapons system. The guy had impressive credentials; the talk was sanctioned by the school. I didn't write them all down. Sorry. Proves they were either bogus or I made them up to justify my (soon to be asserted) true-believer's paranoiac weltanschauung. I found his argument quite cogent, quite credible, and in line with stuff I knew from some people I interned with while a physics major. There is, of course, the argument from practicality and feasibility: it's a hell of a lot easier to aim something at the ground and scorch away than to detect and track a ballistic missile and/or its warheads, determine if it is a decoy, and deliver, over a significant span, with lots of aggressive countermeasures coming at you, a narrow stream of energy. Think about it for a second. If you had a nuke-pumped multi-rod gamma laser cruising around, would you rather fix all the rods on moving targets, using huge amounts of data fed via other satellites (probably themselves under attack: the enemy doesn't just sit there, and satellite-killing is easier than this elaborate scheme), or would you rather take leisurely aim at several spots of terra firma, and let the other guy know you had the capacity to play Spaceman Sherman? #: 191670 S10/Paranormal Issues 10-Nov-91 00:21:18 Sb: #191405-#Crop Circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 It's good to meet you, Michael. First, may I have permission to rip off, "Proves they were either bogus or I made them up to justify my (soon to be asserted) true- believer's paranoiac weltanschauung?" I can really use that on the WGA BBS. That made my day, on a number of levels. Thank you. Our resident skeptics at the WGA invoke inverse equivalents on a regular basis, and it's a perfect pre- emption of at least twelve knee-kerk howls per thread initiation. I really loved it. I'll even give you credit if you want. Upper or lower case on the name? Starting in pre-med, as I did, I understand "(uh, English)," too. With an M.D. mother and a space scientist father there was nothing for it but to be a Journalism major. Except for a few later relapses into Think Tank work, I made my escape. I always loved science and history, and I grew up in an environment which taught me that objectivity requires a certain courage when its result raises questions about presumed fundementals. The enemy of communication, or even the re-asking of presumably fundamental questions, is often taken as a direct threat to the security base of the Discipline under challenge. There is another, of which you also seem free. Collective denial - the invisibility, by even the most "educated," astute, intelligent, perceptive, honorable, well-meaning people, of that which "is too bad to be true." A scan of the last thirty years of our history, not to mention a backward projection through millenia of academic self-contradiction, is a major study in itself. Taking that tack, I knew going into this thread, that collective denial would be the major headwind, but that the burden of communication would be on me, and those who shared my desire to get the "Earth Wars" option into the public conversation for the common good. Please excuse this personal 'dump,' but I guess I want the skeptics to know that they, too, have my respect, and they *should* challenge what doesn't work for them, even if the reason is that it contradicts their education. That's real science. [More] There is 1 Reply. #: 191671 S10/Paranormal Issues 10-Nov-91 00:21:34 Sb: #191670-Crop Circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) [Continued] To return to the thread (with apologies to all for the on- line charges incurred downloading this monster even with Tapcis), I was thrilled to see you say out loud the stuff about nuke-pumped multi-rod gamma lasers. You went straight to the heart of what the "/other" implies in laser/maser/other. If my perception of events is correct, the current state of the art (may da Vinci forgive the term), may or may not have had time to move beyond what it is - the prototype testing of scaled down versions of a technology that doesn't even have a name yet. In the course of the thread (I don't know how much of the three files so far uploaded you've read) but a concession was made on one of the non-paranormal forums that coherent gamma emission was "theoretically possible," but nobody'd yet figured how to do it, as though anybody who knew for sure would take the self-compromising risk of saying so. That requires a lot of between-the-line reading. One never can be sure if one is being baited for the revelation of misbegotten sources, is being discretely "fed" by friends, or is making people nervous and pitfalls are being dug. Your message was very welcome indeed. Re Spaceman Sherman, from recent world developments I would deduce that the "other guys" (whoever "they" are today) are getting quite a demonstration that a new definition of "conventional weapon" has made it to next year's lexicon, and it confronts them with a wider technological gap than anyone can afford the time or resources to pre-empt. Inverting the acronym, the truly immense funding of SDI in the face of public discreditation, and the importance placed on its cessation by the Eastern bloc when it first went "public" strongly suggest that its true purpose (if I'm right) was suspected, if not known. Maybe it's my own residual denial at work, but this could be good news or bad news. It depends who's in control. That's why I find it so important that people look at this very hard. Bob #: 191637 S10/Paranormal Issues 09-Nov-91 22:36:13 Sb: #190998-#Crop Circles Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 To: Stephen Ryland 72345,366 Steve, -> this by no means explains everything That's for sure! Soil and elevation differences are never so precisely geometric. Nor, I suspect, do windswept crops exhibit the changes that are consistent with microwave exposure. Malcolm There is 1 Reply. #: 191652 S10/Paranormal Issues 09-Nov-91 22:48:48 Sb: #191637-Crop Circles Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 You're correct. Roman remains, medieval remains, remains of much more recent times can sometimes be observed from the air as outlines that are darker or lighter than the surrounding cover. But these are principally due to a lack of root space below the surface. A buried wall of a Roman bath does not obey modern boundary lines; it does not arrange to exhibit its pattern above quite suddenly and distinctly after (what must be) years of quietude. The individual plants that make up crop circles are not shorter than their neighbors, nor a more intensive gree color -- they are only bent in such a way to form regular (more or less) figures with irregular (more or less) appendages. #: 191686 S10/Paranormal Issues 10-Nov-91 01:25:40 Sb: #191228-Crop circles Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) Bob, As soon as I get time I'm going to go on over to the Space forum and download those files. I am looking forward to reading them. As I said to Terry E., I think that we are going to find that there are a lot of different causes of the circles. Then the trick is going to be to try and tell which causes go with which circles. What a jigsaw puzzle! One question, could you go into more detail about the Helicopters that can masquerade as UFO's. This sounds very interesting. Terry #: 191753 S10/Paranormal Issues 10-Nov-91 06:34:19 Sb: #191686-Crop circles Fm: anders heerfordt 100016,3142 To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405 It could be the other way around, UFOs masquerading as helicopters. Certainly in the cattle-mutilation cases, there have been many sightings of helicopters that could not be identified, and which behaved in a strange manner, such as not generating sound. But I didnt read the whole thread, so my comment may be misplaced. #: 191778 S10/Paranormal Issues 10-Nov-91 07:19:56 Sb: #191686-#Crop circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405 Terry, about UFO simulations; I reiterate that I'm not a debunker of UFO's, and I hope everyone reading this saw my prior narrative to that effect. There are varying versions about whether the helicopter is NSA, CIA, or Military proprietary. Most guesses attribute it to the CIA. I learned of it from a credible, unclassified source, who happened to stumble on a demonstration of it. I raise it here, because what was described to me very closely fits those UFO sightings associated with certain crop circle events at which UFO activity was reported. There is no conscious breach of the National Security Act in the following. It is said to have been designed for "overt covert" operations of a variety of sorts. It was described as having a light-absorbing exterior - dull black. The powerplant is heavily muffled, and a sound emitter (high pitched) blanks the throb of high rotor-pitch (blade angle of attack, not tone) operation. On the rotor tips are programable strobes which can be synched to RPM to give the illusion of windows. It is heavily overpowered to permit a relatively silent, low RPM hover, and may have a tripod-type landing gear designed to give the classic UFO footprint. It may also have a mist emitter (I realize this sounds far fetched, but everything seems to be, lately) which can be "painted" by programmed lasers in the same fashion that rock concert light shows operate. The effect of the rotor wash on the mist would be irrelevant to the image painted by the lasers. And before everybody freaks out... [More] There is 1 Reply. #: 191779 S10/Paranormal Issues 10-Nov-91 07:20:09 Sb: #191778-Crop circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) [Continued] I was fortunate enough to have tickets to the closing of the '84 Olympics, here in L.A. The most memorable single special effect that David Wolper came up with was a UFO simulation which is still talked about, in a town quite jaded about such things. A UFO appeared in the stadium, took off, and went up up and away. Had I seen it from a country road, or anywhere else, nothing could have convinced me it wasn't real. It, too, used a laser painted image on a special surface. The effect was so compelling and dramatic, as any UFO event must be, that a stadium full of people were completely unaware that it was on the end of a wire, connected to a hovering helicopter - also black - very close by. I only recently found out how it was done. I don't know if you saw it or not, but on a recent episode of "Unexplained Mysteries," hosted by Robert Stack, a very unusual "UFO revelation" was offered. It was about sightings at a U.S. air base in southern England in the very early '80's. What made this piece highly irregular was that it included eyewitness accounts of active reservists and *still active* Air Force personnel. This, as far as I know, was unprecedented. The artists' renditions of what they saw fit the helicopter simulation perfectly - down to the tripod landing indents, the dimensions, the strobe-like "windows." It also included descriptions of effects exactly like the "plasma vortex" and ball lightning effects described by Meaden, and Ohtsuki, the Japanese researcher. (Disinformation by association?) I had the overall impression that the public was being given UFO's to chew on, for the sake of increasing the diversion. Too many common elements, too closely timed to publicized inquiries - in southern England, said to have occured at the time when the circles were first being noticed. Circles not mentioned. Bob #: 192222 S10/Paranormal Issues 10-Nov-91 21:58:11 Sb: #191779-Crop circles Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 Bob, Thanks for the info about the UFO simulating helicopters. They sound like enhanced verisons of the standard black stealth helicopters that the government uses for surveillance work. I don't think that anybody here thinks of you as a debunker. You contribute thoughts and ideas to the discussion and that is what it is all about. There is definitely *something* going on and as you said to Mike H., people had better start taking a good hard look at what it might be. Time is running out and those with their heads in the sand are going to be in for an AWFULLY rude awakening. Terry #: 192057 S10/Paranormal Issues 10-Nov-91 17:49:19 Sb: #191405-Crop Circles Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 >>and let the other guy know you had the capacity to play Spaceman Sherman?<< Michael, if the crop circles are really intended to "send a message" to some other country, the sender must presume the target audience is uncannily perceptive. Excuse my skepticism but, anyone who can disguise a message with this degreee of subtlety should have no trouble deciphering all those diabolical messages that become apparent when rock music is played in reverse! I agree with the premise of this thread that SDI activity is an intriguing possible explanation for crop circle activity and definitely deserves further inquiry. However, sending messages to other world powers (or whoever) through crop circles is a bit of a stretch. It flies in the face of the underlying theory which is that Wiltshire was selected as a testing ground in order to camoflauge the activity. #: 192166 S10/Paranormal Issues 10-Nov-91 20:31:15 Sb: #191143-Crop Circles Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405 (X) Terry, Who the heck IS Willie Horton?! I've seen the name repeatedly in the last week or so and have no idea what/who people are talking about! Malcolm #: 192093 S10/Paranormal Issues 10-Nov-91 19:02:43 Sb: #191637-Crop Circles Fm: Stephen Ryland 72345,366 To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 (X) Just another possibility for some of the more simple circles; but it surely sounds like you have your mind made up. Personally I have not subjected large amounts of cropland to intense microwave energy, so I cannot determine if the grain deformation is consistent or not-we have subjected oil shale to such energy. Steve #: 192269 S10/Paranormal Issues 10-Nov-91 23:31:38 Sb: #192166-Crop Circles Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405 To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 Hi Malcolm, Willie Horton is the black gent who raped a woman while he was out of prison on work release up in Massachusetts in the mid 80's. George Bush used the crime to beat Mike Dukakius up in the 88 election. George played on white fear of mass release of black criminals if Dukakius was elected, even though Dukakius had nothing to do with the release of Horton, to get votes. To me the SDI umbrella to protect little childern from nuke attack was the same thing. The Reagan people played on the fears of nuclear war (remember the crayon drawings of the rainbow shield protecting little Jimmy and mom and dad with little Jimmy's voiceover) in order to get massive funding for SDI. You can scare some of the people some of the time, and you can scare some of the people all of the time, but if you can scare most of the people once in a while you can get anything you want from them and they will never know just what it was they gave you ;) Terry #: 192275 S10/Paranormal Issues 10-Nov-91 23:57:42 Sb: #192057-Crop Circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 Erik, I need to clear up a lingering misinterpretration, and I take full responsibility for not having communicated it well. I never meant to simplistically imply that the crop events were themselves the "signals." I believe Intelligence exchanges and closed door "FYI briefings" communicated much more directly what was taking place, all quite thoroughly modulated by the geopolitical weather, starting quite some time ago. What the crop formations secondarily happen to also do is furnish an ongoing demonstration of the level of R & D. I don't for a moment believe they are anything other than R & D artifacts, cleverly placed. *The crop events are not themselves the signals.* The only reason I can think of for the intensely negative Soviet reaction to the initiation of the SDI program is that they knew its true nature from the beginning, as did the Congressional committees which continued its heavy funding. We must remember that at the beginning, the players were Reagan (literally, with script), Ms. Thatcher, and a very different Eastern Bloc under Brezhnev. Along came Gorbachev, and SDI was no longer a SALT deal breaker. It had its up sides for the futures of several countries. According to media reports here, there is a large procurement team now in Russia negotiating for the sale and exchange of hardware and R & D - much of it openly stated as SDI-related material. The geopolitical sidebars which reinforce the pattern when run in slow motion parallel to the crop event calendar, open a subject far too large for this or any other BBS forum. If and when what I and others tend to believe is ultimately confirmed, that story will be fodder for the historians of this very strange period. First, however, more of the "numbers" in the official portrait of Bush's "New Order" remain blank. Wiltshire, and soon Japan, are two numbers not yet painted in. -Bob- #: 192293 S10/Paranormal Issues 11-Nov-91 04:11:56 Sb: #191405-Crop Circles Fm: Phillip Schuman 76050,55 To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 Michael: An overtly offensive mission for SDI was certainly part of the research (nuclear powered x-ray lasers were shown fairly early on to have little defensive value, but research continued apace anyway), but I'm not sure that it was the preponderant rationale, or that defensive purposes were not heavily involved as well. The point of the whole thing is really that even the defensive side had an offensive aspect, in that it could make a first-strike more thinkable. No first strike foreseeably could prevent some sizable fraction of missed, launched on warning, or mobile launched missiles from being sent in a return salvo, and even 10 hits on major cities would be an unparalleled social catastrophe. But if the fractionally sized return salvo could be knocked down (a task made immensely easier by downscaling the number of targets by, say, 90%), then it became thinkable, and the possibility of meaningful nuclear superiority, and all those war gaming counterforce strike scenarios, would become operational. This was well understood, and explicitly forbidden by the ABM treaty, which limited such defensive attempts to the allowed one or two systems. A usable and meaningful nuclear superiority was the Holy Grail of the defense establishment, and nothing short of SDI would regain it, after the effect of MIRVing the Soviet heavy launchers. But the offensive side of this should be given greater attention, since it was specifically denied in the propaganda treatment designed for its justification. ...phil #: 192474 S10/Paranormal Issues 11-Nov-91 10:13:02 Sb: #191671-#Crop Circles Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 They sure as hell decided to drop out of the weapons race, didn't they? I find it curious, and at times disturbing, that the US and the UN keep swapping positions of authority. Turns out, according to Newsweek, that the UN team cornered by the Iraqis _did_ send the data directly to US intelligence. We also supplied sat data to the UN inspection teams. Now, I'm no apologist for the Iraqis, but I sorta liked the old days when the US griped about funding the UN which always voted against it. Things are real cozy now, and George keeps mumbling about the New World Order, whatever that means. I'm not one of those ravers against dread One World Government, but, hey: we elected the guy to defend, protect etc the US. Maybe I just think the unexamined privileging, in realms as diverse as psychology and geopolitics, of unity over diversity and plurality ought to be examined. Scares me to think every little state that precipitates out of the once monolithic Soviet empire might get a bundle of nukes, but isn't it weird when the Soviets are stopping short only of begging us to take 'em off their hands? And Cheney, in his artfully elliptical way, keeps hinting we'd like to. Isn't there a lag of several hundred years before one gets the straight historic scoop on a culture? In America, we suppose that the infoglut implies a correct version of received current history. I guess the point would be to figure out how to live until 2400, and get a good dark chuckle looking back . There is 1 Reply. #: 192494 S10/Paranormal Issues 11-Nov-91 10:41:26 Sb: #191779-Crop circles Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 Vallee takes up the subject of the so-called Bentwaters incident, and the possibility that it was staged for the witnesses for several reasons-including gauging whether they would "buy" the effects if, say, they saw something similar coming into the base perimeter, or obey orders and fire-and makes some interesting observations about careful control of viewing angles, pre-event dispatching of personnel, etc. #: 192708 S10/Paranormal Issues 11-Nov-91 18:30:22 Sb: #192474-Crop Circles Fm: Tom Genereaux 76703,4265 To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 As a practicing amateur historian, one can allow a bit less than a century elapse before getting the right perspective. Anything more than that and you get into referential problems. (Anyone care to try to explain the mindset of the 18th century soldier? Or a 14th century chatelaine?) However, the following month is too soon. Tom G. #: 192476 S10/Paranormal Issues 11-Nov-91 10:15:53 Sb: #192057-Crop Circles Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 I never claimed, or intended to claim, that the circles were the result of SDI testing. I jumped in on the discussion of possible alternative strategic uses of SDI. Wait. That's redundant. #: 192509 S10/Paranormal Issues 11-Nov-91 10:58:53 Sb: #192093-Crop Circles Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 To: Stephen Ryland 72345,366 Stephen, No, I don't have my mind made up at all; I just blame govt. out of habit. :) Really, I dunno what's doing it. HOWEVER, that being said.... I've seen wind. And I've never seen it arrange things to point to true north. I've seen inconsistencies in a field of growing vegetation. But it's irregular. If I had some kind of energy beam (laser or microwave) and a computer system to control it, it would still be NOT EASY for me to make patterns so precise. When I first heard about circles, I was not terribly impressed. I assumed they were approximately circular with some being maybe elliptical or oval, etc. And I figured they were couple feet across maybe. Then I saw the pictures in New Age magazine. I was floored! The suckers are HUGE! And they're geometric and ultra ultra precise. Mother Nature took no notice when Euclid started teaching classes. I think Grace Slick expressed it best when she said, "You don't see a g**d*** square tree." To conclude that a hi-tech intelligence is behind the circles is NOT a leap of faith, IMHO. It's as plain as the nose on our faces; no, plainer! To conclude that it is anything else is a leap of skepticism, also IMHO. Malcolm #: 192483 S10/Paranormal Issues 11-Nov-91 10:26:36 Sb: #192166-Crop Circles Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 (X) Lee Atwater's best friend. #: 192494 S10/Paranormal Issues 11-Nov-91 10:41:26 Sb: #191779-Crop circles Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) Vallee takes up the subject of the so-called Bentwaters incident, and the possibility that it was staged for the witnesses for several reasons-including gauging whether they would "buy" the effects if, say, they saw something similar coming into the base perimeter, or obey orders and fire-and makes some interesting observations about careful control of viewing angles, pre-event dispatching of personnel, etc. #: 192904 S10/Paranormal Issues 11-Nov-91 23:11:02 Sb: #192269-Crop Circles Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405 (X) Terry, OK, thanks. When you say "remember the crayon drawings" I presume that that was a commercial. I can't remember it cause I'm in Canada and not all of your stuff gets up here. Especially the political "hints" they give you. I don't even get any of the Buffalo stations. Malcolm #: 192905 S10/Paranormal Issues 11-Nov-91 23:11:08 Sb: #192483-Crop Circles Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 Mike, :) Never heard of Lee either. Was that a joke? :) Malcolm #: 192907 S10/Paranormal Issues 11-Nov-91 23:11:18 Sb: #192474-Crop Circles Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 Mike, I think the infoglut means that we can't ferret out the truth now, let alone in future. In S12, Tom left a message sayingthat Texas had withdrawn six textbooks as unusable. One of them stated that the US had once dropped an atomic bomb on Korea! This _was_ a textbook until recently! REA mesage #191583 for a real head-shaker. Malcolm #: 192993 S10/Paranormal Issues 12-Nov-91 06:09:07 Sb: #192509-Crop Circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 Malcolm, I couldn't help but notice in your message to Stephen Ryland your initial expectation of relatively imprecise circles, ellipse, etc. Interestly, the perfectly circular ones, few in number, are generally relatively simple depressions, albeit with the classic "braided layover" pattern. I have some of the surveys, and reports from researchers, of the immense, complicated ones with clearly precise formats, and the circles most often turn out to be very slightly elliptical - even along the alignment of whatever straight-line structure connects multiple circles. The effect isn't consistent with an angle of incidence from an emission source not directly overhead, but is very consistent with very slight elongation caused by slight differential motion, or a collimation effect I know not of. You'll find among the better pictures of the more recent, complex ones,some that look unsettlingly like target reticules. It's a convenient design for evaluating precision and alignment. Bob #: 192992 S10/Paranormal Issues 12-Nov-91 06:08:59 Sb: #192494-Crop circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 Michael, I'm not familiar with the Bentwater incident, at least by that name. It sounds like something described to me in E-mail by a UK pen pal in Wiltshire. Likewise, the name Vallee is new to me. I'd sure appreciate any directions you can give me, or at least additional information about the incident you mentioned. Another of the rationales for using Wiltshire as test site had to do with the cover that would be afforded "observers" who could simply mingle among the metaphysical researchers, and take the 2 quid tour. Many of them brought electronic gear, but couldn't be separated from the tourists who brough technical gear of their own. There was apparently quite a large and well-equipped Japanese contingent. I mention this because the preponderance of circle events outside the UK, numberically speaking, have occured in Japan, as has much possible parallel research (Ohtsuki and others). I have video of a few of the Japanese events, and they have a very different look - more chaotic - and more consistent with the "plasma vortex" effects so prominent in the literature we're able to obtain from Japan. One can't help but wonder if they have an independent program of their own, certainly on a seemingly smaller scale than the one under discussion, employing a different basic effect. My alarm bells tell me not to omit factoring them into the equation. Bob #: 193023 S10/Paranormal Issues 12-Nov-91 07:22:34 Sb: #192992-Crop circles Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 Bob: Given the depth of your research and your WGA membership, may we anticipate a movie on this subject? If your UK pen pal referred to the Bentwaters incident he may have called it the Rendlesham Forest incident. It occurred in late December 1980 in Rendlesham Forest just outside Bentwaters AFB, a U.S. NATO base in Eastern England. Supposedly a UFO in distress made an emergency landing and was surrounded by USAF security troops. After a "face-off" between the base commander and one of the diminutive UFO crew, the crew made repairs and departed, leaving the USAF with film of the entire incident. The most extensive published account of the incident so far is a not very satisfying book called *Sky Crash* by Jenny Randles, Dot Street and Brenda Butler (Neville Spearman 1984). I've been told by an AF colonel that, according to some participants, the most accurate account was published in *Soldier of Fortune*, but I'm still waiting for him to find his copy and tell me which issue it was in. There's a book in progress by a fellow named Larry Warren who claims to have been there. Also, there's a paper on the case by Raymond Boeche, of Lincoln, Nebraska and MUFON, in the 1986 MUFON Symposium Proceedings. According to Boeche, Nebraska's Senator James Exon looked into the case personally and then refused to discuss it, even with his staff. Terry #: 193217 S10/Paranormal Issues 12-Nov-91 17:26:09 Sb: #192275-Crop Circles Fm: Dennis Williamson 73260,350 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 I tend to agree that IF crop circles are related to SDI then it is PLAUSIBLE that they are "R & D artifacts" as you state. I would also agree that they are not themselves the signals and that the signals are carried on in a more conventional manner. However it must be considered that the circles may also serve as _camouflaged_evidence_ with their nature known to all the "players." Although it causes hope to swell, it makes me nervous that so much peace-making is going on all at once. What does it mean? Will we see Northern Ireland laying down arms next? Is the US playing "make peace or we shoot you"? Are we simply witnessing some last-minute preparations for the end of the millenium (a la the previous millenium-end)? I think that Dennis Hopper's character was correct in Flashback when he said that the "Nineties are going to make the Sixties look like the Fifties" - only more so. Dennis #: 193073 S10/Paranormal Issues 12-Nov-91 08:53:10 Sb: #192708-Crop Circles Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 To: Tom Genereaux 76703,4265 (X) Point on the 14th-c chatelaine well-taken. I was once in a Chaucer seminar that foundered on the point (the prof and I took one side--evil cultural conservatives that we were; the others took the "progressive" side) of whether we could make assumptions about Chaucer's attitudes, and thus use them as guides in interpreting his ironic intent, based on his posited enlightened adherence to current value systems. I thought the whole thing was wishful thinking. And presentist chauvinism of the worst sort. #: 193074 S10/Paranormal Issues 12-Nov-91 08:55:26 Sb: #192907-Crop Circles Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 (X) Yes, I saw the article on the lamentable textbooks. Late in 1991, before the Berlin Wall fell, the State of Texas rejected a number of public-school history textbooks because of errors of fact. #: 193217 S10/Paranormal Issues 12-Nov-91 17:26:09 Sb: #192275-Crop Circles Fm: Dennis Williamson 73260,350 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) I tend to agree that IF crop circles are related to SDI then it is PLAUSIBLE that they are "R & D artifacts" as you state. I would also agree that they are not themselves the signals and that the signals are carried on in a more conventional manner. However it must be considered that the circles may also serve as _camouflaged_evidence_ with their nature known to all the "players." Although it causes hope to swell, it makes me nervous that so much peace-making is going on all at once. What does it mean? Will we see Northern Ireland laying down arms next? Is the US playing "make peace or we shoot you"? Are we simply witnessing some last-minute preparations for the end of the millenium (a la the previous millenium-end)? I think that Dennis Hopper's character was correct in Flashback when he said that the "Nineties are going to make the Sixties look like the Fifties" - only more so. Dennis #: 193078 S10/Paranormal Issues 12-Nov-91 09:04:48 Sb: #192905-Crop Circles Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 (X) Lee Atwater, dirt engineer. An OK guy, even though he worked for causes I didn't like, until he got a brain tumor and went touchy-feely. #: 193076 S10/Paranormal Issues 12-Nov-91 08:58:47 Sb: #192992-#Crop circles Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) Vallee is one of the more non-partisan researchers and writers on the UFO phenomenon. The people who insist on a nuts-n-bolts space-buggy explanation hate him; the people who insist on purely psychological or metaphysical interpretations hate him. He's conservative in the formation of opinions. He'd like to reach conclusions by employing the methodology of science. That bugs some people. There is 1 Reply. #: 193093 S10/Paranormal Issues 12-Nov-91 09:56:44 Sb: #193076-Crop circles Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 (X) >Vallee is one of the more non-partisan researchers and writers on the UFO phenomenon. He's also one of the better qualified, as an astrophysicist and computer expert who has been interested in UFOs since 1960 and has spent much time, effort and money going to primary sources for firsthand investigation. And yes, he does bug some people. Not me, of course. (sniff) #: 193084 S10/Paranormal Issues 12-Nov-91 09:37:24 Sb: #192992-Crop circles Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) addendum: Bob: While waiting for a lady at *Soldier of Fortune* to call me back with the info about the article on Bentwaters I've been re-reading your previous messages. In #191778/191779 you mentioned a recent episode of *Unexplained Mysteries* about "sightings at a U.S. air base in southern England in the very early '80's." I, too, saw and taped that episode; it was about the Bentwaters incident but was pretty superficial, based almost entirely on the published parts of the tape recording made at the time by Col. Charles Halt. Terry #: 193470 S10/Paranormal Issues 13-Nov-91 01:17:25 Sb: #193217-#Crop Circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Dennis Williamson 73260,350 Dennis, your message reflects the point of view I personally hold. Even down to the IF and PLAUSIBLE. Though the crop effects may be artifacts of testing, those artifacts are also a very clear demonstration of the level of R & D. placing them on public display as camouflaged evidence to all the "players" would certainly be an invaluable function as well. Your point is well taken. Whichever side of the game the "players" are sitting, I don't doubt that incredible displays of '90 and '91 is for some of them, tantamount to ego death. I also see a pattern in the outburst of peace making. IF I'm right about the cause of the crop events, we are seeing exponential evolution in the technological context. Why bother with a physical bomb in an airplane when you can deliver it with a rocket? Why bother with a rocket when you can make a bomb that delivers itself and is Smart? Why bother with the delivery of a device of any kind if technology permits eliminating all the "middle things." Conceptually, its darkest side is that of the ultimate clean bomb, surgically precise. The Dennis Hopper quote really is apt, perhaps. I've used the term "Manhattan Project of the 21st Century." [More] There is 1 Reply. #: 193471 S10/Paranormal Issues 13-Nov-91 01:17:37 Sb: #193470-Crop Circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) [Continued] For the sake of speculation, there sits an essentially impoverished former knee-jerk foe. It cannot justify at home what an "SDI" (henceforth read Earth Wars) competition would entail. A quantum conceptual leap into the future has been made. Nor is Russia any longer able or willing to shore up any allies anywhere. Pulling their own weaponry back into controllable clusters (as is being done, since the lesson of the coup), we negotiate them under the umbrella of SDI. They retain a strong regional capability, since given the large Moslem poulation within their borders, and strained relations with China, AND a rock/hard-place economic situation, we become the perfect closet ally. So what's in it for Russia, and for us? And how does it affect the Middle East so as to accelerate the inevitability of regional accommodations? Russia needs collateral for an international line of credit on which to base a convertable ruble - the only basis for a realistically hopeful economic future. We need energy independence, and a new, even if covert, defense industry. Russia's collateral is its oil reserves, and the Middle East knows it. Factor in Israel's dependence on the U.S. for economic survival, and suddenly accommodation is the only possible scenario. What we are left with are newly defined Second and Third Worlds, scurrying to realign into a viable "New Order," as Bush unfortunately terms it. You put it very well. "...last minute preperations for the end of the millenium." I sure wish I could see a story board for the next one. Bob #: 193447 S10/Paranormal Issues 12-Nov-91 23:40:09 Sb: #193023-Crop circles Fm: anders heerfordt 100016,3142 To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 There is a tape recording available from the Rendelsham Forest case. The recording was made (by the deputy base commander?) during the incident. It is sort of a journalistic record of the incident, with some emotion. #: 193472 S10/Paranormal Issues 13-Nov-91 01:17:51 Sb: #193023-Crop circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 Thanks for the compliment, Terry, but the depth of my research is relative. All I'm really doing is gathering together the pieces of a puzzle which fit into the pattern and refuse to be dislodged. As for the WGA, no movie is planned. This one's a freebee. We are the movie, right here at our keyboards. The circles themselves are strictly documentary material, being done by people closer to the scene, and with more intimate knowledge of the affected place. The quickest way to abort an attempt to place an important and hitherto invisible (for psychological reasons, I think) scenario on the discussion menu would be to attempt to fictionalize it. Given the level of Security under which this must be happening, if it's happening, to dramatize this scenario would be to neuter it. It took a person on the moon to get space flight off the occult book shelves and into universally respectable conversation. What it will take here is a simply structured scenario that will stand up by itself, walk, and take on a life of its own. I suppose that professional writers get more practice at that than most people. Fictioneering is a lot easier than this, though. I'll respond to the Bentwaters information in my response to your message about the UFO show you taped. Therein resides a maze. Bob #: 193474 S10/Paranormal Issues 13-Nov-91 01:18:16 Sb: #193076-Crop circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 I noted with a smile your characterization of Vallee, and Terry Ecker's response. This guy wouldn't bug me at all. He sounds like he understands what it takes to "get any respect" from academic orthodoxy. Invoking metaphysical terms is professional suicide. With metaphysicians whose rules of evidence are different, the fusion is a real tightrope, and probably inadequate to satisfy both. I wish him well. I come from a clearly defined place, and have fought those wars myself. I see no distinction between metaphysical events and natural history. If it's happening, it's happening. If the rules of evidence get in the way of investigating it, change them. Or, at least suspend disbelief before refuting them. I think many people hold positions out of subjective need. Many academicians are terrified of rethinking the fundamentals, because of the threat to what they believe is their unimpeachable, axiomatic data base. That is pretty scary. On the other hand, weird stuff happens, and if it contradicts what we think is true, I say that's the way it goes. The fact always remains that the fact remains. If it can't be explained, that won't make it go away, even if it does contradict the fundamentals. I wish Vallee and some heavy hitting closet Vallees' I know of luck. His greatest hazard is the burnout of frustration. He's working in areas of academia in which the more one thinks one Knows, the harder it is to cognize or even tolerate anything which threatens it. I like to believe that no True Faith has anything to fear from the truth. A bit of vocabulary adjustment, maybe... but that's not so bad. Bob #: 193473 S10/Paranormal Issues 13-Nov-91 01:18:02 Sb: #193084-Crop circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 Thanks for the information about prior narratives of the Bentwater incident. It isn't the one my UK pen pal was talking about - but is certainly the same one as the subject of the "Unexplained Mysteries" segment I referred to. It was interesting to learn from you that the report does have a prior history. I too taped the segment, and replayed it before writing this. Whatever the true nature of the original event, whether an actual UFO event or one staged to cover the early crop events from the beginning, there were aspects to the program which marked it for me as opportuning on the UFO alternative to add to the chaos of covers. I don't recall ever seeing an "expose" of a military sighting and cover up in which active duty personnel or even people on active duty at the time were allowed to speak on the TV record in so direct a fashion. From the feel and look of the piece, all my professional instincts tell me it was put together with the participation of the military. This implies redirection and disinformation. It would be a shame if a bona fide UFO event were a casualty of this surrealism unfolding around us. I will look up those sources you cited before I go out on a limb and say that it was also staged for the benefit of out- of-the-loop military personnel as well, in the interests of keeping an ongoing disinformational opportunity alive. As a UFO believer, it pains me have to play devil's advocate with them. Bob #: 193469 S10/Paranormal Issues 13-Nov-91 01:17:13 Sb: Crop circles (errata) Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Erik Albrekston 70312,3576 Hello, Erik. For credibility's sake, I'd like to correct an error I made about an illustration in the Centre for Crop Circle Studies (CCCS) book. In a prior, when discussing the 20/20 coverage this past year, I mentioned that on the program they showed footage of some military personnel attepting to fake one. I also said that I'd seen the same one in the CCCS book, "The Crop Circle Enigma," 1990 edition. I was wrong. I just got the book back from a friend to whom I'd loaned it, and memory had played a trick. I saw the picture all right, but elsewhere. I gave the impression that the CCCS book had been fooled, and this wasn't the case. I was being a sloppy "reporter." The book is now in a 2nd edition, and I recommend it highly as a source of excellent photographs for stufy, and the presentation of a variety of widely differing theories. Maybe If I sell a few copies here for the CCCS, they'll forgive me. Bob #: 193554 S10/Paranormal Issues 13-Nov-91 08:29:55 Sb: #193471-#Crop Circles Fm: Dennis Williamson 73260,350 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) Can the Defense Industry justify its activities without a clearly-defined enemy? The Soviet Union provided just the right amount of paranoia. Can the (apparently newly- peaceful or subdued) Middle East? Or the sleepy Chinese? How long will the public go along with "we have to be ready - just in case (someone _becomes_ an enemy)"? So are you saying that Russia needs us to buy oil from them and the Middle East needs us to continue and we are playing one supplier against the other? Hmmm, it might be nice to live in a buyer's market for a change. So the "New World Order" puts us back on top with all the muscle (both as a military power and a power consumer). What leverage will we use to subdue Germany and Japan? Interesting that we have come (somewhat) full circle. "...last minute preparations..." - You realize that my statement sarcastically assumed that the "players" are fearful that they had better get their houses in order so as to be ready for Judgement Day. Else years ending in three zeros have no special significance. Gonna be a heck of a New Year|Century|Millenium party on 12/31/2000, though (not to mention the Oops I Thought it Was on 12/31/1999 party). Until we (and George) start acting locally, though, not much progress will be made. Peace begins at home. While we continue to beat our children, rape our women, subdue our poor (educationally and economically), starve our hungry, drug ourselves, destroy our environment, ... abstract ideas like world peace have little meaning. Dennis There is 1 Reply. #: 193757 S10/Paranormal Issues 13-Nov-91 16:45:50 Sb: #193554-Crop Circles Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 To: Dennis Williamson 73260,350 Dennis, -> While we continue to [have no peace at home] world peace [has] little meaning Right on! We should all ask ourselves why the latter seems more important than the former for the New World Order. Maybe cause the domestic situation has been taken care of? Malcolm #: 193592 S10/Paranormal Issues 13-Nov-91 09:42:02 Sb: Crop Circles Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) >>What the crop formations secondarily happen to also do is furnish an ongoing demonstration of the level of R & D.<< Bob, I apologize for not being more clear in my comments. It was not my intent to attribute to you or anyone else a suggestion that the circles themselves contained any particular message. I meant to convey my skepticism that any other country would recognize them as artifacts of SDI testing. Are you suggesting that the Soviet intelligence community is aware of the "true" nature of crop circles? "Geopolitical sidebars" (nice ring to that phrase!) notwithstanding, nothing I've seen on this thread reinforces that notion. >> I believe Intelligence exchanges and closed door "FYI briefings" communicated much more directly what was taking place, all quite thoroughly modulated by the geopolitical weather, starting quite some time ago.<< Without wanting to sound too demanding, what evidence do you have for this rather remarkable statement? >>Why bother with a physical bomb in an airplane when you can deliver it with a rocket?<< Once again, even assuming the crop circles are SDI related, this thread has produced no evidence that "the force" is any more dangerous than a large dust devil. Why the sudden conclusion that it has destructive powers which, so far as I know, have yet to be demonstrated? #: 193568 S10/Paranormal Issues 13-Nov-91 09:15:34 Sb: #192993-#Crop Circles Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) Bob, I'm just waiting for them to duplicate TV test patterns and for some expert to come along and tell me it's the wind. Malcolm There is 1 Reply. #: 193641 S10/Paranormal Issues 13-Nov-91 12:16:55 Sb: #193568-Crop Circles Fm: Russ Ranshaw 70000,1010 To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 (X) Malcolm, > "... it's the wind." Well, as the adage goes, "It takes one to know one." :) -Russ #: 193981 S10/Paranormal Issues 13-Nov-91 21:39:02 Sb: #193568-Crop Circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 Malcolm, I think if they made a five acre duplicate of da Vinci's self-portrait some expert would come along and tell us it's the wind. Bob #: 193982 S10/Paranormal Issues 13-Nov-91 21:39:20 Sb: #193554-Crop Circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Dennis Williamson 73260,350 Dennis, permit me a 200 decibel AMEN to your comment about the need to get our local house together as the first order of priority. No qualifiers. Sadly, the genesis of Bush's mindset, not to mention the story of his life, seems to have left him with no such perspective, except when the polls tell him he needs to produce new lips to read. I don't mean to politicize this, because then political agenda tends to become the subject, occluding our ability to isolate the subject of the thread. We probably are playing the oil marketplace, with Russia not only a major supplier to us, but as an alternative for the much of the rest of the industrialized world. Its mapped and known reserves are as great or greater than those of the Middle East. Only development has been lacking. The fact of the existence of the reserves, however, is in itself enough collateral for the international line of credit I mentioned. The third competitor then becomes China. Russia's and China's reserves combined exceed those of the rest of the world together. With Russia free of the expense of the arms race, her economic future is actually quite positive. Maintaining an "enemy" of some sort is indeed needed for full-bore funding of DoD. We seem to be keeping China in a very gray area since TienAnMen. Could it be that that the democratization of China was the last thing we wanted to see? We've been very forgiving. And, not terribly hospitable to the Chinese students who escaped, who are still having problems with the INS. German unification (not a universally happy prospect) has distracted them for the time being. They're hanging out to dry at the moment. Stay tuned. I took your "millenium" line in the spirit intended. You were right about New Years Eve. I think the millenium ends when 2001 arrives. That's why they called the movie that... -Bob- Japan might have a program of its own. Being totally energy dependent from outside, embroiled in rising tensions over a variety of economic with the US, facing a possible trade war which they can afford more easily than we can (but not for long). #: 193983 S10/Paranormal Issues 13-Nov-91 21:39:43 Sb: #193592-#Crop Circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 Erik, thanks for the compliment on the ring of my phrase. You clearly understand how to soften up a writer. But alas, no mercy. I don't understand your skepticism that other countries wouldn't recognize the crop events as (possible) "SDI" testing. If some here can, why not the analysts of other countries. Just because this is the only conversation I know of being publicly held on the subject, I wouldn't presume who knows what, how they found out, whether they were informed, or why. Nor would I cling to the KGB as the enemy archetype. They have their own problems, and it isn't us. Do you have any idea how many L.A. writers are going on Prozak because they have to rewrite scripts with different enemies? It's become an industry joke, not to mention a sensitive area in our standard contract viz-viz what constitutes a legitimate re-write. (Woops. I'm not supposed to talk about that. Classified.) How's Prozak selling in the UK these days, by the way...? You aren't being too demanding about evidence for closed door "FYI briefings." If I had it, I'd be Gary Sick with an "October Surprise" book, being interviewed on CNN, or Nightline, for evidence of this "rather remarkable statement." If I were in a position to have such evidence, other than what my own logical processes dictate, based on direct perception as an outsider, I sure wouldn't be documenting it here, unless they allow modems in the slammer. (Do they still call it "gaol" in the UK, Erik?) "The Force" in the following. [More] There is 1 Reply. #: 193984 S10/Paranormal Issues 13-Nov-91 21:39:57 Sb: #193983-#Crop Circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) [Continued] Your right that this thread has produced no evidence that "the force" is any more dangerous than a large dust devil. No conclusion was stated or implied anywhere in the thread by me, at least, to the contrary. Development of an atomic bomb was preceded by an experiment at the University of Chicago in which a primitive reactor verified the underlying principles. But once that feeble demonstration was made, the fact of the bomb was presumed as simply a matter of time, the desired effect being one of degree, not possibility. The landing of Surveyor on the moon made Apollo 11 a matter of time. Actually the hard part was accomplished by Apollo 8. Few realize how tiny the re-entry window of the return trip was. Once conquered, that particular "hope this works..." was behind us. All that follows will have been a matter of time referenced to that accomplishment. When the first laser was generated and recognize almost thirty years ago, sheet metal cutting, holography, programmable CD's, scanners, my beloved printer, all these became inevitabilities. It was presumed that something new (to put it mildly) was about to occur, but what those things might be were inconceivable until the fact of the microprocessor became a reality. Nobody is saying that these experiments yet have the destructive powers you say I claimed. As you say, they have yet to be demonstrated. What has been demonstrated to my satisfaction, at least, is that given the lessons of history, it's only a matter of time, and Apollo 8 is now behind us. I will be quite pleased if we are forever spared that demonstration. [More] There is 1 Reply. #: 193985 S10/Paranormal Issues 13-Nov-91 21:40:12 Sb: #193984-Crop Circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) [Continued] Erik, my apologies for yet another addendum, but our exchange demonstrates something I think is important. Think of this thread as the scrutiny of a newly identified archaeological artifact. We are archaeologists now. We have noticed something so full of natural anomalies that we must pursue the possibility of intelligent manufacture. The scientific method demands that we begin with the most conceivable explanation, based on knowns. Once those are exhausted, we relax the rules of evidence a bit and proceed, kicking around the unkowns. What we don't do is ask "why would they make something like that...?" and all the other questions that are irrelevant until the fact of the artifact's existence is conceded. Unless the artifact "beams off screen," I don't have to deal with "evidence" for anything but its existence. Not the credibility of closed door "FYI briefings," which on this side of the pond doesn't seem remarkable at all; not the potential for undemonstrated powers. Nada. Zip. I'm pointing at something, saying "what the hell's that?," offering a scenario consistent with the Known, hoping I'm wrong. E.T.s and/or telluric energy patterns would be much more exciting and less threatening, except to professional debunkers of the paranormal, whose agendas vary. Does your attribution to me of sudden conclusions I haven't made, or "demands" for evidence of "FYI briefings" I am only suggesting, imply that you are struggling to believe or disbelieve our "theory?" This isn't yet clear to me. If it were, perhaps I could address your questions better. Either way is okay. I'll hang in there. Maybe I'm asking you to ask yourself the question. Bob #: 194053 S10/Paranormal Issues 14-Nov-91 03:14:42 Sb: #192904-Crop Circles Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405 To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 Hi Malcolm, >I don't even get any of the Buffalo stations. Sorry,I keep forgetting that you live north of the border, Toronto I believe. Yes, the US political machine uses the media quite heavily to lobby the people for one thing or another. I'm sure that you get the same type of thing in Canada. The SDI commercials were a beauty. They used the voices of a little boy or girl (depending on the commercial) talking about how mommy and daddy (picture of a crayon drawing done like a child would of mommy and daddy and little boy/girl standing outside their house) were worried that the Russians could launch a nuclear strike at the US (crayon picture of bombs falling through sky above house) and that there was nothing that they could do to stop it. The little voice continues that Pres. Reagan wants to put an shield, like an umbrella, over their heads (crayon drawing of a rainbow between the bombs and the house and mommy and daddy and little boy/girl) to protect them. Little voice then asks,"Isn't this a good idea!". Cut to address of local Congressman/woman to write to. Tell them to support SDI bill. Hey, this kind of stuff works for the toy companies. I guess that the government figured what the heck, give it a try. SDI still gets major funding so I guess it worked. BTW, even the people living in Buffalo don't always "get" the Buffalo stations. Boy am I going to catch it for saying that . Terry #: 194000 S10/Paranormal Issues 13-Nov-91 23:17:42 Sb: #193641-Crop Circles Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 To: Russ Ranshaw 70000,1010 Russ, ALIEN BREAKS WIND; BREAKS CROPS! :D Malcolm #: 194116 S10/Paranormal Issues 14-Nov-91 07:05:40 Sb: #193982-Crop Circles Fm: Dennis Williamson 73260,350 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 Yeah, Bush's having come from CIA certainly would give him a more international outlook. Japan learned much from us in order to get where they are now. I'm afraid that in the process they couldn't help but get contaminated by our faults as well. The signs are beginning to show. Dennis #: 194183 S10/Paranormal Issues 14-Nov-91 09:52:20 Sb: #193983-Crop Circles Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 Bob: >Do you have any idea how many L.A. writers are going on Prozak because they have to rewrite scripts with different enemies? Are you familiar with Zecharia Sitchin's *Genesis Revisted*? If so I would be very interested in your opinion of his hypothesis. If not, I think you might find the book, especially the last chapter, very pertinent to your interest in SDI and the surprisingly fast and smooth realignment of world powers we've been watching. He does at least hypothesize an explanation of it all, with a hypothesis that accounts for the known facts even if it turns out to be horse feathers. And he does hypothesize a new enemy - actually an ancient enemy returning: the Nefilim of the Old Testament, headed our way once more aboard the planet Marduk, this time to be greeted by SDI. Terry #: 194353 S10/Paranormal Issues 14-Nov-91 16:52:25 Sb: #193981-Crop Circles Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 Bob, I think you're right. Gee, I guess it _must_ be the wind, eh? ;) Malcolm #: 194116 S10/Paranormal Issues 14-Nov-91 07:05:40 Sb: #193982-Crop Circles Fm: Dennis Williamson 73260,350 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) Yeah, Bush's having come from CIA certainly would give him a more international outlook. Japan learned much from us in order to get where they are now. I'm afraid that in the process they couldn't help but get contaminated by our faults as well. The signs are beginning to show. Dennis #: 194353 S10/Paranormal Issues 14-Nov-91 16:52:25 Sb: #193981-Crop Circles Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) Bob, I think you're right. Gee, I guess it _must_ be the wind, eh? ;) Malcolm #: 194518 S10/Paranormal Issues 14-Nov-91 21:55:52 Sb: #193073-Crop Circles Fm: Tom Genereaux 76703,4265 To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 It's unfortunate, but the current "thinking" tries to impute modern Western thinking on a distant culture. Doesn't work. Tom G. #: 194117 S10/Paranormal Issues 14-Nov-91 07:05:50 Sb: #193757-Crop Circles Fm: Dennis Williamson 73260,350 To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 (X) How has the domestic situation been "taken care of"? I assume you meant it sarcastically, but can you be more specific? Dennis #: 194603 S10/Paranormal Issues 15-Nov-91 05:57:03 Sb: #194183-Crop Circles Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 Terry, thanks for the referral to *Genesis Revisited.* It sounds like a good one for the collection. Your precis was tantalizing. It would be a wonderful irony if after spending all that money on an SDI that only points down, it *did* get blindsided by the Nefilim on board the planet Marduk. I love it. Bob (STAY TUNED...) ********************************************** * THE U.F.O. BBS - http://www.ufobbs.com/ufo * **********************************************