From htoaster@yabbs Thu Jul 21 17:06:59 1994 From: htoaster@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Date: Thu Jul 21 17:06:59 1994 From htoaster@yabbs Thu Jul 21 17:13:44 1994 From: htoaster@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: yanb (yet another new base) Date: Thu Jul 21 17:13:44 1994 Discuss anything of a religous nature here, or anything politcal with religious overtones (such as abortion)... alex From Pele@yabbs Thu Jul 21 19:05:24 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: THIS IS GREAT!!! Date: Thu Jul 21 19:05:24 1994 Ok...I'm a Christian and ever since a run-in with another user I've always felt uneasy about discussing my views so this is going to be great 'cause if you don't like religious talk you wouldn't be here!!!! Cool!!! I'm a scientist/christian. If anyone thinx there is a paradox in that or doesn't understand how, ask. I'd love to talk about the parallelism of the study of science and the study of God. (I believe that the purpose of science is to understand God) Cool!!! This is Cool!!!!! -Pele_ From Cat@yabbs Thu Jul 21 21:36:20 1994 From: Cat@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: THIS IS GREAT!!! Date: Thu Jul 21 21:36:20 1994 hmm religion base...well i have to say something...i am quite the cynic in regards to religion, having been dragged to church against my will for years and years...i always wanted to just not go and be a pagan but i lack the courage to tell my parents so and therefor i am a sell out and it's all my fault i know i know ah well :) i think religion is a nice idea so long as it's not forced on others. i wonder tho...many religions say they're _the_ religion and everyone else is wrong..i know they do at my church anyway..well how do the christians know that god is god and buddah isn't? and vice versa. i very much believe in god, i am just very anti-church -tammie From Zbadba@yabbs Thu Jul 21 22:19:30 1994 From: Zbadba@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Religion, natch Date: Thu Jul 21 22:19:30 1994 I am without religion. This is not to say I see anything inherently wrong with religion (not believing in absolutes anyhows). I think it is fascinating to study religion in its forms (its origins, its evolution). I simply lack the prerequisite of faith. Lacking faith, ipso facto, I cannot have religion. From dmonger@yabbs Thu Jul 21 23:27:25 1994 From: dmonger@yabbs To: Zbadba@yabbs Subject: re: Religion, natch Date: Thu Jul 21 23:27:25 1994 well, i view all religions as what (IMO) they are: mythology. i have my own view of god, one that others probably don't share. I've never been able to believe in any religion that can claim that none of the others are correct, which is unfortunately a feature of all the ones i know of. -peter From Natalie@yabbs Fri Jul 22 00:15:19 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: Cat@yabbs Subject: re: THIS IS GREAT!!! Date: Fri Jul 22 00:15:19 1994 hmmm...my best friend just sent me some email kind of about this...as some of you may know, one of the things i'm studying at school is religion...my area is the gnostics...but jenn said that my interest in religion goes beyond the scholarly and into me looking for Something. she told me that some problems that i've been having lately are due to my thinking that i've violated this as yet unknown Something. i dunno. i wasn't brought up religious, and i've often wondered if part of the empty space in me is this lack of faith...i can't reject religion because i've never really experienced it... natalie From Death@yabbs Fri Jul 22 04:01:39 1994 From: Death@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: re: THIS IS GREAT!!! Date: Fri Jul 22 04:01:39 1994 I believe in a god, although I don't think that MY god is really compatible with any of the gods of the world's many religions, but then again, who knows? Anyways... I practice Judaism by choice. Many of it's traditions fascinate me, and I agree with it's value system in most (though not all) cases. For instance, the system of Kashrut (what should and shouldn't be eaten, to put it simply) is a much healthier way to eat than just eating anything. Also, one of it's tenets is that when an animak er animal, is killed for food, it's death must be painless. I don't eat much meat, but what meat I DO eat is kosher because I don't thnk ANY animal, be it cow, chicken, dolphin, or human, deserves to suffer undue pain for another's benefit. Although it can be argued that killing it is just as painful, but then there's another Jewish belief that I hope is true: the belief in an afterlife. Well, I'm starting to ramble a bit... So I'll let someone else speak now :> This has been my faithful contribution: --Les From Deluge@yabbs Fri Jul 22 07:21:42 1994 From: Deluge@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: re: THIS IS GREAT!!! Date: Fri Jul 22 07:21:42 1994 I have, and always will believe that religion is meaningless. All that I care is that is :I believe in God, and always will. I really don't think people need to be Catholic, Protestant, Presbyterian, Baptist or whatever to have faith in him. I have no religion, so does that mean I don't believe in God and that I'm a sinner? Nope. From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 22 12:14:20 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Cat@yabbs Subject: Your question Date: Fri Jul 22 12:14:20 1994 Ok...How do we know that God is God and not Buddah? It has to do with the uniqueness of our situation. First of all, What separates christians from other religions is not God but Jesus, his son. You see...I am resigned to agree that Jehovah, Allah, Budda (Budda was a man, not a God), Brahma and the rest of them are the same. That is, the names are different and perhaps the doctrine has minute differences but the overall effect of God remains the same. In other words, it's not what you call him it that you believe in him in some way or anther. It' s not a competition to see who has the best religion. Now...what separates christians. I can only tell you what mad me become a christian as opposed to a Muslim or something like that. It has to do with faith. I grew up in a Christian home but I never really believed on God or anything. I understand where you are coming from because I was feeling the same way. At some point, however (I don't know the date) I started to listen and I found some wonderful things out. -No matter what you do...it's forgiveable, even if you don't forgive yourself. -Jesun died and was resurrected. No other religion in the world has that claim. That also reasures us that we too will die and be resurrected. It is that hope, and that faith that we too will live forever with God that makes Christians (at least this one) want to praise his name all day long! Thanx for asking...I needed to tell someone so that I could tell myself (I often find myself doubting my beliefs). NO matter what you believe...believe in God. He loves you like a father loves a child....only infinitely more. God Bless you! -Pele- From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 22 12:17:36 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: dmonger@yabbs Subject: re: Religion, natch Date: Fri Jul 22 12:17:36 1994 There is much more to religion than mythology. There are similarities in its overall structure but there is one thing that separates them. The only religion today that still claims the mythological-like existence of many gods is Hinudism. All others today (at least the major ones) believe that there is one omnipotent being that created the universe and someday may have a hand in it's end. From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 22 12:24:12 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Deluge@yabbs Subject: re: THIS IS GREAT!!! Date: Fri Jul 22 12:24:12 1994 I agree, you don't need religion to believe in god. YOu just need God to believe in religion. Releigion is really nothing more that aq giant Social club where people who have the same beliefs get together and worship the person (God) you believe in. It doesn't matter if it's Catholic, or Protestant church or if it's in a Jewish Synagoge (Sp?) or in the holy land of Mecca, the point is that if you truly believe then there is a feeling that overcomes you when you are with people of similar beliefs that cannot be described. A feeling of euphoria that no drug could ever porvide. I call it the Holy Spirit you can call it what you will but it makes me feel good and it's the kind of adddiction I can geted to having. :) -Pele- From dmonger@yabbs Fri Jul 22 13:56:26 1994 From: dmonger@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Religion, natch Date: Fri Jul 22 13:56:26 1994 In message re: Religion, natch, Pele said: > There is much more to religion than mythology. There are similarities in > its overall structure but there is one thing that separates them. The > only religion today that still claims the mythological-like existence of > many gods is Hinudism. Mythology has little to do with multiple gods. It is the study of myths and legends, stories which may or may not have had a factual basis. When you remove the faith aspect, all religions that i have found are based on mythology as much as, say the Greek and Roman religions which the word seems to bring to most people's minds. Mythology (last time i checked) has nothing to do with multiple gods. It is the study of myths and legends, stories which may or may not have had a factual basis, which usually describe an event (creations myths are a part of most religions) or explain how or why something (of which Just So Stories would be a good example if they hadn't been written so recently :). Religion is the belief in one (or more) supreme beings. Most of the religions that i have seen (and there may be some that i'm not correct about this on) are based on myths and legends once you remove the faith (not Faith) aspect from them. Turning water into wine, loves into fishes (or fishes into loves or iguana into kiwi fruit or whatever the damn miracle was :) are good examples of this IMO. Not that i'm saying you can't be right. I agree that you can't describe something as a myth and still have a deeply set belief that its absolutely true ... the two kind of contradict each other. For all i know, i could be streaming straight to hell with this post. I was reading the bible last year for the hell of it, and i was really struck by the enormous similarities between that and some of stories i've read before (mostly Greek myths and American Indian myths). The biggest difference IMO is that christianity has only one god, and is still practiced a bit more today than the Greek version :) -peter From Cat@yabbs Fri Jul 22 14:43:30 1994 From: Cat@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Your question Date: Fri Jul 22 14:43:30 1994 In message Your question, Pele said: > -Jesun died and was resurrected. No other religion in the world has that > claim. That also reasures us that we too will die and be resurrected. the phonix also dies and is resurrected. > NO matter what you believe...believe in God. He loves you like a father > loves a child....only infinitely more. oh i said i believe in god, just not church. and my dog loves me more thatn my father does, so that was a bad example to chose :) my father treats me like a child tho :) > God Bless you! geez, are you sure you don't go to my church? :) -tammie From Death@yabbs Fri Jul 22 15:12:52 1994 From: Death@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Your question Date: Fri Jul 22 15:12:52 1994 As to there not being ressurections in other religions, that's not even close to true... In fact, most of the world's major religions have smor form of ressurection in them somewhere. If you want examples, I can give you some from about 10 different religions... --Les (he for whom theology and mythology are a large hobby :) From Natalie@yabbs Fri Jul 22 19:20:37 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Your question Date: Fri Jul 22 19:20:37 1994 what i think is cool about islam is thatthey accept jesus as one of their prophets. not many ppl know that. islam, in theory (not practice) is a relatively peaceful religion. of course, christianity is supposed to be that way too... natalie From hawke@yabbs Fri Jul 22 19:21:46 1994 From: hawke@yabbs To: pele@yabbs Subject: re: Your question Date: Fri Jul 22 19:21:46 1994 gak its that kind of narrow mindednes that caused the crusades and the inquisitions or however the hell you spell and its that kind of narrow mindedness that turns me off to organized religeon. someone who is still searching fro something to believe in hawke From Steyr@yabbs Fri Jul 22 21:24:16 1994 From: Steyr@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: My views. Date: Fri Jul 22 21:24:16 1994 Let me start my saying that I do not believe in a God or gods. I agree that religions (I'll refer mostly to Christianity) are based around myths and legends. BUT ... It's a fact that many myths have some (perhaps only very slight) basis in real occurrences. Although I don't believe in God, I do feel that SOMETHING happened during the period in which Jesus supposedly lived. There is also too much evidence that has been uncovered which supports many of the stories in the bible (and other religious doctrines/contemporary texts) to say that it is ALL a load of crap. I feel that "god(s)" are created by man to fill gaps in what they don't understand, and that perhaps there were things which happened 2000 years ago which, because people did not understand then, got put down as the work of God. I certainly don't believe in extreme religious concepts such as "God created man from the dust of the Earth", but I also think that statements such as that may have undergone much misinterpretation a) over time, and b) during the translation from Hebrew to English. So basically ... although I don't believe in God, I do believe that religious doctrines may have some basis in fact. To me, religion will be filed away as another mysterious X File. What a pity Fox and Dana don't have access to time travel. Anyway ... that's my opinion on things. Feel free to crucify me for it. I may have a slow turn-around (maybe 3 days), but I'm sure I'll rise again to respond. :) :) ,,, (o o) +----oOO--(_)--OOo----+ +--------------------------+ | \ \ | | Barry Noble / / Melbourne, Australia. | | (Steyr) \ \ Steyr@GPO.swin.edu.au | | / / | +---------------------+ +--------------------------+ From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 22 22:23:58 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: dmonger@yabbs Subject: re: Religion, natch Date: Fri Jul 22 22:23:58 1994 I'll give you that there are a great number of similarities between the stories of the Bible and the myths of ancient greece and rome. However you have to look at something else. The Bible has many different aspects to it. I'll be the first to admit that there is a great deal of poetry to the Bible and it is probably full of symbolism and that it has a very mythological nature to it's Old Testament stories. However, if you read the rest of the Bible, like the stories of Jesus and his dicipiles you'll find them quite unique. In fact if you were to read the Koraan and the other religious books of different religions, you'll find that they all have things that separate them very much from myths. All in all...however, being that I can only speak on Christianity, I find that the purpose of having faith is so that you can be faced with these doubts and these questions and not faulter. It is very easy to give up and say that there is no God or that religion is bogus when you see what happens around you every day but I personally find it much easier to accept that a supreme being is responsible for the creation of the earth and the people and animals that are on it (the big bang can't be explained resonably to me without attributing it's occurence to God). Religion has it's faults, I admit, and I can understand why there are those who don't want to believe in a God. In the end, however, I believe that we all need to believe in a God. God gives our lives meaning. The concept of a heaven and a hell gives us something to aspire towards and it comforts us in our times of pain and suffering. Religion brings people together in love and fellowship and that is something that should be encouraged and not put down My $0.02 -Pele- From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 22 22:27:18 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Cat@yabbs Subject: re: Your question Date: Fri Jul 22 22:27:18 1994 I don't mean to turn you off...I'm sorry if I do. I'm just hoping that you don't forget that God is there for you. On the subject of church. People need a place where they are always welcome and no matter what...there is always a church (or synagoge or temple or something) out there for you wehere you are welcome. Doesn't matter why you go to church as long as you feel the love of god there with you. BTW, I know I don't go to your church! :) -Pele- From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 22 22:28:43 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Death@yabbs Subject: Other religions Date: Fri Jul 22 22:28:43 1994 I welcome a chance to be educated. Give me those religions and examples. I would appreciate a different insight. Thanx, Pele From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 22 22:37:43 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: hawke@yabbs Subject: re: Your question Date: Fri Jul 22 22:37:43 1994 I'm sorry you feel that way because I would like to believe I'm the least narrow minded person when it comes to religion and God. You do have personal questions that you have to answer for yourself, Hawke and I respect that. If you are searching for something to believe in, start with yourself. You have to find God within you and not you within God. The search for something to believe in isn't external it is internal. Point: The inqusition was caused by people who refused to accept that there could be any other religion aside from Christianity. I have nothing but contempt for that idea. I have no idea if my belief system is correct. I only know that I have to believe that it is. I would be a hypocrite otherwise (Can't spell for the life of me!). I accept, however that other people believe other than I do and I respect that. The search for God is personl and internal I only offer my beliefs so that other can determine if they believe what I believe or if they don't want to believe that. It's a personal choice and I can only hope that they believe in God and Jesus christ because then I have someone to worship with :) I hope you see that neither I nor the rest of the church is your enemy. The church is here to help you find yourself and God. I don't really know why I'm here (a question I'm sure a lot of people ask!) but I'm still searching. The difference is I'm doing that search with God. -Pele- From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 22 22:41:47 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Steyr@yabbs Subject: re: My views. Date: Fri Jul 22 22:41:47 1994 That's cool! As long as you have made your decision on your own I respect that. One quick thing, though. No matter how "God" exists, he does serve some good perposes. Religions teach you to be a good person according to certain moral and ethical laws. If people want to follow these laws and hope and even believe that there will be a reward for their efforts...I say let them! That's all -pele P.S. I'm sorry, I think I'm taking up too much of this base....sorry. From Death@yabbs Sat Jul 23 01:50:28 1994 From: Death@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: The "Old" testament Date: Sat Jul 23 01:50:28 1994 I'd just like to remind everyone that the old testament, as it is currently written, has not changed at all in about 2500 years... there is a written copy of it dating back about that far (I don't remember the exact #) It is still written in the same exact script, with the same flourishes and all as it was then. That is one of the biggest traditions in Judaism. As to things being lost to translation, I can assure you that most of what is in the Christian bible's translations is relatively accurate (although I haven't gone over it with a fine toothed comb). thus, the Roman/Greek legends and those of the Bible are probably based on what were, essentially, the same events. --Les From Death@yabbs Sat Jul 23 02:13:01 1994 From: Death@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Other religions Date: Sat Jul 23 02:13:01 1994 Alright, let me dig up my notebook... :> When I find it, I'll add more detail to this, but for starters here's two: Judaism: Among those who study Kabbalah (Jewish Mysticism) it has been determined through careful study of the Tanach (the 5 books of Moses, Prophets, and Writings) that there are several instances where major figures in the bible's Nishomot (souls) returned to try and redeem themselves. This is reffered to as Gilgul (reincarnation, of sorts). Many people have spent there lives researching this, and there is one prominent example which I can reveal in detail. Moses, (the one who led the Israelites out of Egypt had, in fact, existed in a previous life. There are many symbolic, and substantial links between Moses and Noah. Noah was given 120 years to try and save the world, before the floods. Moses lived for EXACTLY 120 years, to the day. This occurance was explained to me by the following reasoning: G-d knew he had given Noah a near-impossible task for a mortal to accomplish, so he found the Nishoma (soul) of Moses who had not yet walked upon the Earth, and added it to that of Noah, in the hopes of giving him a chance. When Noah failed, G-d removed the soul of Moses, and decreed that it would have a second chance to redeem itself. Thus, Moses himself was born a little while later. When at the Red Sea, the sea did not actually part for Moses, but for the coffin of Joshua (Jacob's favorite son) which was born out of Egypt on he back of the Isrealites. This is because the sea remembered Moses and blamed him for having had to destroy everything. In fact, in his speech to the Israelites upon reaching the sea (which is a prayer chanted every morning, incidentally) there appears to be a second conversation going on, between Moses and the sea, although only one half of it can be "heard" In it, Moses says "Please wipe me out, I'm from Noach" which is yet another link. I'm going to stop now, before the server kicks me for inactivity... more later. This has been a friendly lesson in Kabbalah... --Les From Pele@yabbs Sat Jul 23 17:05:59 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: dmonger@yabbs Subject: re: Religion, natch Date: Sat Jul 23 17:05:59 1994 One quick thing. You pointed out that I often assume Greek/Roman when I think of mythology and that is not always the case. Similarly you refer to religion in terms of Catholicism whic is more than unfare to all the other religions out there in the world. One quick point: No matter what the belief system you possess, it's always important to believe in something. It's not about belief in a doctrine but in a way of life. I don't believe in Hell, per say but I do believe in a heaven, or some sort of reward for your life and how you lead it. From Pele@yabbs Sat Jul 23 17:09:14 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Death@yabbs Subject: re: Other religions Date: Sat Jul 23 17:09:14 1994 facintaing...:) From Natalie@yabbs Sat Jul 23 17:51:40 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: Death@yabbs Subject: re: Other religions Date: Sat Jul 23 17:51:40 1994 kabbalah is cool...have you read foucault's pendulum (umberto eco)? lots of kabbalah in that...it talks about rearranging the letters of the torah and coming up with what god intended, not what man got, which is, becuase we are imperfect, garbled....it's such a rad book... natalie From fish@yabbs Sat Jul 23 18:44:05 1994 From: fish@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Your question Date: Sat Jul 23 18:44:05 1994 ch of cavemen trying to lite a fire, I would be worshiped. Not because I am anything special, but because in their minds it was a vision from their god. It will work to solidify their belieifs in their religion, and I would get temples built in worship of my airplane. Maybe that is why the different religions feel so strongly about their beliefs. And maybee that is why they try to convert you to their beliefs, "because they saw my plane". Now, what if I flew over several villages with different beliefs? Well, just as rumors and gossip goes, you would have all these stories about Fish's aircraft, and they would although have different traditions behind them, would be of the same awe inspiring event. Some would build Dome shaped structures with little fish designs on them, and some would build large fish totem poles. The more developed ones would build spinxish F-16's, compleate with all of the markings hoping I would land and groove with them. I think there is one god, it's just that different people have their own ways of paying tribute. I also don't think people should go to war just because they saw my airplane at different times of the day, the evening sect of F-16 worshipers and the morning set of F-16 worshipers. But alas the world is a dynamic entity, and we really don't have any leaders right now that are making everyone look at things the same way. From what I see something is fishy, there has got to be some greater picture that puts everything in it's place. Whether it is Star-Trek, my caveman worshipers, or the "one true god" that has the correct picture. We will not know for sure until we kick off. So I say, if it isn't against their religion, buy everyone a round of drinks and let's all live in peace and harmony. I also think that this particular section of this BBS will help everyone to understand eachother's beliefs and maybee we can use that to piece everything together. What was on the tail flash of that streaking falcon? (no, it was a giant albatross!) I hope I don't see that kind of bickering amongst us. Man, that was a deep thought! Take care! Fish From fish@yabbs Sat Jul 23 18:54:25 1994 From: fish@yabbs To: fish@yabbs Subject: re: Your question Date: Sat Jul 23 18:54:25 1994 y an F-16 over a bunch of cavemen trying to light a fire... From fish@yabbs Sat Jul 23 18:56:46 1994 From: fish@yabbs To: fish@yabbs Subject: re: Your question Date: Sat Jul 23 18:56:46 1994 e dead line dead line The key to misunderstanding is having you're first paragraph cut off ;) dead line dead line (ok, that should clear it) I SAID, that my other letter starts out. "If I were to fly my F-16 over a bunch of cavemen trying to start a fire, I would be worshiped. Not because I am anything special... *smile* Fish From Death@yabbs Sat Jul 23 20:16:45 1994 From: Death@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: Other religions Date: Sat Jul 23 20:16:45 1994 Yep, I have read it. Along with many other books along that vein (sp?)... Technically, you're not allowed to study Kabbalah until you're 40, but since when did I obey the rules? ;> Actually, if you can understand it the Zohar is really cool (it's the REAL book of kabbalah). The trick to it is that there are actually two copies: one that is publically available, and the _real_ one which isn't very easy to come by... I've only seen one copy, and my ancient Hebrew isn't all that great, so I had a little trouble understanding it :> Oh well... I'll figure it out eventually. --Les From Natalie@yabbs Sun Jul 24 01:22:26 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: Death@yabbs Subject: re: Other religions Date: Sun Jul 24 01:22:26 1994 and then there are those of us who only read religious works in translation. like me. heheheh. natalie From Death@yabbs Sun Jul 24 01:57:40 1994 From: Death@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: Other religions Date: Sun Jul 24 01:57:40 1994 hehehe the only problem is that it HASN'T BEEN TRANSLATED!!! and no, I'm not kidding... it's been the same text, meticulously copied for lord knows how long... --Les From Cat@yabbs Mon Jul 25 09:12:48 1994 From: Cat@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: good and evil Date: Mon Jul 25 09:12:48 1994 i was thinking :) and it seems to me that you cannot have god at all without having satan. if you believe in god as the supreme good, that makes him different from something else, his power has a different effect and different feel than something else..by putting a label on this "power", or even simply by noticing the difference, we actually force into existance a negative or "evil" force. woithout good there would be no evil and vice versa. because if the world was "good" (which is totally impossible anyway :) ) how would you know of evil? and if you didn't know of evil, you wouldn't be able to say this is good. mankind will always have its degenerate, unappealing factorsthat don't measure up to whatever moral code is in place, and those factors will be deemed as evil. change the moral code and what is now seen as evil might be acceptable and perhaps even viewed as good. -tammie From Steyr@yabbs Mon Jul 25 10:20:12 1994 From: Steyr@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: God and Satan Date: Mon Jul 25 10:20:12 1994 Actually, a lot of the people I have talked to, believe in God but do not believe that Satan then also exists. I think the two go hand in hand, and that if you don't believe that Satan exists then you can't belive God exists either. Other people views wanted here please. ,,, (o o) +----oOO--(_)--OOo----+ +--------------------------+ | \ \ | | Barry Noble / / Melbourne, Australia. | | (Steyr) \ \ Steyr@GPO.swin.edu.au | | / / | +---------------------+ +--------------------------+ From Badger01@yabbs Mon Jul 25 10:50:04 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: What I am Date: Mon Jul 25 10:50:04 1994 I'm a cursed cur..A Catholic who can't get past it...an unbeliever who believes, a heretic who likes the Ppe as a person but thinks Celibacy is driving Priests insane...I don't know anymore. I believe in something, but I don't know what...I'd say I am a Gnostic Agnostic, but that'd be too easyt to say (Although I sometimes think that I hear the Demi-Urge) and I really just feel that I can never know the mind of God. Badger01 Who thinks that God may be a Badger named Myrtle :) From Badger01@yabbs Mon Jul 25 10:51:51 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Your question Date: Mon Jul 25 10:51:51 1994 >No matter what you believe...believe in God. He loves you like a father >loves a child...only infinitely more. I hope that he loves me better than my father did, because if he loves in that way...then he hates me. Badger01 From Badger01@yabbs Mon Jul 25 10:53:32 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: Cat@yabbs Subject: re: Your question Date: Mon Jul 25 10:53:32 1994 On the ressurection motifd in Religon: Several faiths (Mithraism, Demeter and Dionysus in the Greek, the Norseief in Vallhalla) have a death and ressurection motif, but the Phoenix was never worshipped. Badger01 From Badger01@yabbs Mon Jul 25 10:57:19 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Religion, natch Date: Mon Jul 25 10:57:19 1994 Christianity and the sect of Dionysus have much in common. Let's look at this (And this is a nominal Catholic doing this, so you can't just dismiss me as a non believer) Dionysus, the son of the supreme sky god and a mortal woman, could heal the sick and raise the dead. He turned water into wine. When he was put to death, he rose three days hence. This scenario happens again, practiaclly identically, in Mithraism, hich is just Zoroasterian belief (Two gods, one Omnipotent good, one omnipotent evil, both one being) with a resurrected man-god added. Compare this to christianity. See any analogs? Badger01 From alarm@yabbs Mon Jul 25 15:26:38 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: Cat@yabbs Subject: re: good and evil Date: Mon Jul 25 15:26:38 1994 You said, >i was thinking :) and it seems to me that you cannot have god at all >without having satan... You are correct when we think of it in psychological terms; the contrast of evil helps us to see that good is good. But this is not a necessary contrast as your argument supposes. Since the world is full of "evil" or bad or whatever you want to call it, we cannot psychologically understand good without it. But what it the world was something like it says it was in the Bible. The sin that Adam and Eve committed had to do with this very contrast. They thought that they would be like God, knowing good and evil. The Bible sets a picture for us of the possibility of a world without evil and without satan (before satan became evil he was an angel, i.e. good; according to the Bible). The argument is that sin caused them to have this psychological necessity thrust upon them and us. It is not a logical necessity. Anselm, a twelfth century monk (I think), or maybe 11th, said that God was the only logically necessary being. It is called the ontological argument for the existence of God. A very interesting argument, even in it's primitive form. -alarm. From Pele@yabbs Mon Jul 25 17:34:08 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: re: Religion, natch Date: Mon Jul 25 17:34:08 1994 Ok, I will admit that there are similarities between Christianity and other religious sects. In fact, I'm willing to concede that they are all connected in some way. So what it comes down to is faith. It's hard to have faith when the world has delt you an uneven hand (believe me I know). It's even harder to have faith when everything has been rosey for you your entire life. It's easy to dismiss modernday miracles as Mother Nature (which, in fact is prescribing some all powerful force the job of running nature) but I find it much more appealing to believe that no matter what there is someone out there who always cares no matter what and that someone will always be there when I need him/her. So what it all boils down to is that God (or the image of God) is comforting to people and I find the aiethists out there who insist on ramming their aiethistic beliefs down people's throats offensive. You personal beliefs are understandable (only to you) but I beg of you...if you refuse to believe that a supreme all-knowing and omnipotent being exists in our Universe, there is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise and I'll be the last person to try (I have tried and failed too often). All I ask is that you respect that and not try and convince me that I am wrong by quoting other religions and certified myths to me as evidence of fallacy in my belief. The fact of the matter is, if all these religions can name incidents with such similarity and precision, I'm inclined to believe that they are talking about the same person with a different name. Open your minds to the possibility that there is a God and find a world that you never knew existed. One last thing. There is no scientific proof that God exists. But similarly, there is none to say that God does not exist. As a result, until proven otherwise, I'm going to search for him in my own way: with faith, hope and love in my heart. Laugh and scorn all you want because the Bible predicted this response over two thousand years ago. -Pele- From pixy@yabbs Mon Jul 25 18:50:21 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: whoopteedoo Date: Mon Jul 25 18:50:21 1994 So we changed the name of the base. Big deal. What were we talking about in the the anarchy base? Politics and religion. Well, let's go on and jump inot this bible thumpin' frey. Hi! I'm a 19 year old non religious, non christian, non jew, non anything. I believe in the ultimate failure of logic to explain and fufilll us--translation: i believe in some sort of god. From what i've read so far most all of us here are pretty much the same in our religious views--Pele is a fellow Techie, so of course he is a christian :). Actually, i don't think i would like to jump into this bible thumping frey. It's a waste of time. Afterall, don't you all agree that it is absurd to settle issues of faith in nonlogical things throught logical discourse--translation: isn't it stupid to argue about things we can't humanly prove one way or the other? So, instead. I want to talk about something a little more secular: politics. Moan if you like, but next to architecture and sex, it's my life. Helll, I'll even address a religious issue with my opening blow. here's my thought, I welcome any feelings--don't worry about hurting my feelings. My Thought: The renewed religious reactionary movement in America threatens the integrity--regardless of how much is presently there--of the Constitution(my bible) and religion itself(your bible). Afterall, isn't the whole movement a scurrilous plot to exploit religion in order to promote an economic and political agenda that is irrevelant and even against the teachings of the New Testament which so many of you plebes treasure? Fire Away, Pixus Pietus (Pious Pixy) From alarm@yabbs Mon Jul 25 19:44:39 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: pixy@yabbs Subject: re: whoopteedoo Date: Mon Jul 25 19:44:39 1994 pixy, I think that I probably respond to more or your posts than anyone else's. I guess it's because you present the most interesting arguments. I agree with your thought: >The renewed religious reactionary movement in America threatens the >integrity of the Constitution and religion itself... I would like to take this as an opportunity to present my view as to why it is a misguided effort. As a follower of Jesus my motivation and reasoning will be different than your's, but our conclusions are quite similar. Short history lesson. Many years ago one of the Roman Emporers was converted - enter Constantine. With Constantine came the mixing of the state and the church. Those who were born into the empire were thereby automatically born into the church. --Heresy in the New Testament-- Ever since that time, most of the church has viewed itself as having some sort of relationship with the state. When the Reformation came great strides were made in reforming the church, but Constantinian Christianity remained, except withing the Radical arm of the reformation. These radicals were called Anabaptists because they re-baptized adults. Both the Catholics and the reformers hated and killed the Anabaptists. In America today there has been great strides to separate church from state. The state certainly wants to quell the religious influences, but unfortunately much of the church still feels that it has a role in the state. IMO it is the Constantinian compromise that is misleading both the religious right and the religious left in this country. One is trying to make the state like the church and the other is trying to make the church like the state. Solution: The church today needs to look back to the Biblical Anabaptists like the Swiss Bretheren and the Mennonites, and the later movement in England of Baptists. These and many others can all be called by the same name "Believers' Church." The Believers' Church believes that only those who believe should be members of the church and those who are in the church do not compromise with the state. We support peace and oppose war. Many of the atrocities of the church such as the religious wars and the crusades came about because of the Constantinian compromise. There's more, but that's enough for now. sounding the alarm From subvrtUS@yabbs Mon Jul 25 23:10:58 1994 From: subvrtUS@yabbs To: pixy@yabbs Subject: re: whoopteedoo Date: Mon Jul 25 23:10:58 1994 youre damn righOD ad you know what? why believe in something that your parents originally indoctrinated you with when you were a kid? Find youyour own set of beliefs and then match them with existing religions. If no match, sa t start a knew one. sanfu x From sienna@yabbs Tue Jul 26 00:40:10 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: A thought on REL Date: Tue Jul 26 00:40:10 1994 I just posted a poem on the poetry base about hypocrisy in the church (post #808) to which I thought I would direct your attention. (Actually, I am too lazy to retype the whole thing out here, and since this is not technically a poetry base, I thought it best to leave my poem on the board it belonged...*smile*) I hope this doesn't offend anyone (my poem, I mean). I have been seriously hurt by people who were doing something "in the name of the Lord." I myself believe in God (how else am I still ALIVE?). But I do not call myself a "Christian." My faith in organized religion was killed when the church I was going to and the pastor I looked to for guidance burned me. The poem is dedicated to two people who, in the eyes of the church and the community, were "God-Fearing, good Christian people," yet who did unspeakable acts of torture and abuse. *shrug* Oh well, just thought I would throw my two cents worth in. I welcome any ideas and/or comments. Dee aka sienna From Natalie@yabbs Tue Jul 26 01:24:19 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: re: What I am Date: Tue Jul 26 01:24:19 1994 i sometimes think that i am a gnostic agnostic as well...but i don't hear the demi-urge, i hear sophia... natalie From Natalie@yabbs Tue Jul 26 01:26:16 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Religion, natch Date: Tue Jul 26 01:26:16 1994 *SIGH* i want jesusbot *smirk* natalie From Natalie@yabbs Tue Jul 26 01:28:43 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: whoopteedoo Date: Tue Jul 26 01:28:43 1994 um...have you ever read 'the life of the blessed emperor constantine' by eusebius? if you have then you know that constantine went out in the woods one days and wondered which god was the most powerful...he then saw a glowing cross in the sky and decided that christianity was the way to go...so cneturies of pain and suffering were birthed by on man's hallucination.... natalie From Badger01@yabbs Tue Jul 26 10:24:41 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Religion, natch Date: Tue Jul 26 10:24:41 1994 I think you mistook me for someone who hasn't already stated that he DOES believe in a God. Duder, for someone dedicated to NOT trying to convince us...you are trying hard to convince us, and it's grating. This isn't a flame...I'm not angry with ya, and I'm not accusing you of anything. (Well, yes I am, but it's hardly a crime to be inconsistent...I do it all the time.) Badger01 From Badger01@yabbs Tue Jul 26 10:27:13 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: What I am Date: Tue Jul 26 10:27:13 1994 That's probably teh same thing, in a way.. What I feel is what drives me..I feel it the strongest when I'm clicking as a writer, and I know that it's working and I can flow and theres a power in me and I scream though the words like liquid. A freind of mine calls it "Mainlining God" when you hit that state. Badger01 From Badger01@yabbs Tue Jul 26 10:30:17 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: Chi-Rho Date: Tue Jul 26 10:30:17 1994 He didn't ACTUALLY see the cross, according to his biographers, but he saw the Chi-Rho, that strange symbol Catholic Priests still wear on their Sunday Vestments...It's the Greek letters Chi and the Greek Letter Rho combined, and it stands for Christ..does KINDA look like a cross, but not really...And he saw words in fire above the sun.."BY THIS SIGN SHALL YOU CONQUER" except in latin. "In Hoc Signo Vinces" I believe. Which kinda suggests that you shouldn't stare into the sun. Badger01 From alarm@yabbs Tue Jul 26 13:29:27 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: Constantine Date: Tue Jul 26 13:29:27 1994 Eusebius did a lot for the church in giving us all that history stuff that we wouldn't know if he hadn't done it, But he practically thought Constantine was the second coming of Christ. He didn't see the devastation that was coming on the church. Before constantine the church was visible and the working of God in the world (Providence) was invisible. After Constantine theologians reversed it and Augustine said the real church was invisible (because those who were not saved were in the church) and People like Eusebius thought that what they saw Constantine do must be the providence of God, thus providence became visible. The whole concept of the church was switched around. sounding the alarm From Pele@yabbs Tue Jul 26 15:07:53 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: jesusbot Date: Tue Jul 26 15:07:53 1994 heehehehehe. From Pele@yabbs Tue Jul 26 15:29:18 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: Sorry Date: Tue Jul 26 15:29:18 1994 I really shouldn't have went that message to you. It was really directed at everyone. I am just sick and tired of being looked down upon because I am a firm believer in Jesus Christ and the Christian faith! I was told by someone on this thing that "Aiethists are some of the most intelligent people in the world!" Now how am I supposed to take that? You want to know what I did? I appologized for being as pushy as I am (although I don't really think that I am). So...for the last time...this is directed at everyone: You can beleive whatever woops....Ok...let's try that again... You guys are free to believe whatever you want. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I think that it is just a ludicrous NOT to believe in God as many of you think that it is for me to believe in God. I guess that's the way things are. I was under the impression that this was a place where we could discuss Religous Issuses in a friendly and polite atmosphere. If that is not the case...if this is to be a God-Bashing/Christian-Bashing channel, please let me know so that I don't bother to read it anymore. If, however this is a channel for all to open their minds to, in order to discuss their respective beliefs then I'm happy to be here. (I know I can't convert anyone and I wouldn't bother to try, I just express my opinions and if those are offensive then I'm sorry) Well..that's it. If this sarts a flame war then I overextimated the members of yabbs. I hope I didn't. -Pele- From Badger01@yabbs Tue Jul 26 15:34:41 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Sorry Date: Tue Jul 26 15:34:41 1994 I wasn't trying to slam you. Okay...anyway, onto a question, so as to allow people who worship things we haven't mentioned yet to jump in: What is the actual nature of Divinity? What is it composed of? Do we know? CAN we? Badger01 From dmonger@yabbs Tue Jul 26 16:12:14 1994 From: dmonger@yabbs To: pele@yabbs Subject: re: Sorry Date: Tue Jul 26 16:12:14 1994 Why is it that you weren't trying to convert any of us with your arguments, but we were trying to destroy your beliefs? sorry, but i always get annoyed when religions people tell me that the athiests are trying to take over the world, but that they're just trying to enlighten us poor heathens -peter (who realizes that pele's post wasn't ment in this manner but who is annoyed by this problem all the same) From sienna@yabbs Tue Jul 26 17:18:48 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Sorry Date: Tue Jul 26 17:18:48 1994 I certainly hope that this doesn't become a "God-basing/Christian-bashing" channel either....I know that I have been severely traumatized by people who claim to be Christians...I guess what I am looking for is discussion on a mature and compassionate basis which in turn can help me to come to some sort of decision on where I stand on the whole religion issue. I hope I have made some sort of sense. Dee From Natalie@yabbs Tue Jul 26 20:07:47 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: re: What I am Date: Tue Jul 26 20:07:47 1994 i never thought of it that way...i LOVE that feeling you get when you're writing and you know it's good and you don't ever want it to stop....it's the MOST incredible feeling in the world for me...literature and writing are more my religion than christianity ever will be...i grew up surrounded by books, i've spent my life loving books and being alone with them...i can't say that that's ever happened with me & jesus... natalie From Natalie@yabbs Tue Jul 26 20:08:20 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: re: Chi-Rho Date: Tue Jul 26 20:08:20 1994 or eat shrooms that you find growing in the forest... natalie From Natalie@yabbs Tue Jul 26 20:09:35 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: Constantine Date: Tue Jul 26 20:09:35 1994 i never said that eusebius was an unbiased source. he's a VERY biased source. but he's the best one we have, and after you sift thru the pandering bullshit you get to some truth. if you want to read something funny, read procopius's secret history...that's awesome.... natalie From Faith@yabbs Wed Jul 27 02:33:51 1994 From: Faith@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: live/let live Date: Wed Jul 27 02:33:51 1994 two cents worth in here. You know considering my name and all. ;) Perhaps it's just me but I think the answer to a lot of things is simple. To me if we just "live and let live" then the world might be a nicer place. Call me an optimist, but that's kind of my line of thinking. Plus respect seems to be needed in the world. Respect for other's views. I'm not sure how the above fits into this base but seems appropriate to me. Now the next things is I consider myself Christian. I believe in God, Satan, Jesus. I don't however really believe in attending church. I was raised Catholic and saw a lot of hypocrisy in the church. I won't go into that. That's just my opinion on it and who am I to judge anyone really? Who are any of us to judge? See, that's what I think is so funny about some ppl who try to force religion or their views down others' throats. My understanding of a section in the bible says, "let the sinless cast the first stone". It also seems to say, "judge not lest ye be judged." Now the last part I think of often seems to say that, "we are born of sin." So basically my thought is that none of us are sinless, so therefore none of us have a right to judge anyone else. Make sense? I hope so because it's late and I'm tired, just thought I'd ramble a bit before bed. Comments? Questions? Problems? Faith :) From Faith@yabbs Wed Jul 27 02:36:45 1994 From: Faith@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: re: live/let live Date: Wed Jul 27 02:36:45 1994 The first part of my message said...I guess a few of you guys figured I'd put my two cents worth in...etc.etc. Really wondering why things keep getting cut off...ideas anyone? Faith From pixy@yabbs Wed Jul 27 02:43:21 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: subvrtUS@yabbs Subject: re: whoopteedoo Date: Wed Jul 27 02:43:21 1994 In message re: whoopteedoo, subvrtUS said: > youre damn righOD ad you know what? why believe in something that your > parents originally indoctrinated you with when you were a kid? Find > youyour own set of beliefs and then match them with existing religions. If > no match, sa t start a knew one. I'm with you on that one. I grew up with a catholic, yet very open and philisophical, father and an agnostic, very scientific, mother. An interesting combination to say the least, they allowed much freedom of choice in religion. I really hate to see kids grow likely zombies, religion spoon-fed daily, never questioning. I never stop questioning. So far the only religious document that i've accepted is Ecclesiastes and probalbly will be the only one. pixy From pixy@yabbs Wed Jul 27 02:48:10 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: whoopteedoo Date: Wed Jul 27 02:48:10 1994 In message re: whoopteedoo, Natalie said: > um...have you ever read 'the life of the blessed emperor constantine' by > eusebius? if you have then you know that constantine went out in the > woods one days and wondered which god was the most powerful...he then saw > a glowing cross in the sky and decided that christianity was the way to Are you sure about that? I heard that ole constantine had a dream haunted by angels. They told him that if he bore the cross in battle the next day, he would win. So he tried it, won the battle, and for better or for worse, the rest was history. Either way, one of the nuttier phases in human history--or herstory (chuckle chuckle)--was founded upon nuttery. It's fitting, I suppose. pixy From pixy@yabbs Wed Jul 27 02:56:26 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: re: Chi-Rho Date: Wed Jul 27 02:56:26 1994 In message Chi-Rho, Badger01 said: > He didn't ACTUALLY see the cross, according to his biographers, but he saw > the Chi-Rho, that strange symbol Catholic Priests still wear on their > Sunday Vestments...It's the Greek letters Chi and the Greek Letter Rho > combined, and it stands for Christ..does KINDA look like a cross, but not > really...And he saw words in fire above the sun.."BY THIS SIGN SHALL YOU > CONQUER" except in latin. "In Hoc Signo Vinces" I believe. You know, that chi rho stuff really makes alot of sense. Everytime my father use to get really frustrated--this happened mainly when he was trying to fix something--he would loudly exclaim, "Chi-Rhi-St!!!This damn thing just won't work!!!" I always figured that was a prayer of some sort. Well, it's close to Chi Rho, anyway. And the Latin would probalbly be "HOC SIGNO VINCES" since an ablative of means in Latin doesn't require a preposition. From pixy@yabbs Wed Jul 27 03:05:36 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: badger01@yabbs Subject: re: whoopteedoo Date: Wed Jul 27 03:05:36 1994 it would be "HOC SIGNO VINCES" since an ablative of means in latin doesn't require a prepostion. But if i had been Constantine, and someone told me, "HOC SIGNO VINCES", I would've surely replied, "VIR ES ALTO AUT QUID?"--"Are you high or something, man?" From pixy@yabbs Wed Jul 27 03:15:29 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: pixy@yabbs Subject: re: whoopteedoo Date: Wed Jul 27 03:15:29 1994 i'm sorry but the computer is playing with my mind, thus the two different posts saying the same thing. ...Hey wait, now it's telling me that if i worship Jesus, i'll figure out how to Ftp alt.pictures.erotica strait to my own computer at home and not my network account. Seems fair enough... pixy From Natalie@yabbs Wed Jul 27 07:07:02 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: pixy@yabbs Subject: re: whoopteedoo Date: Wed Jul 27 07:07:02 1994 yes i'm sure about that...i had to read the damn thing for my class and i remember thinking how fucking ludicrous it was...he might of had a dream too, i can't remember...alli really remember is the hallucination ion the woods and eusebius's overwhelming awe of constantine...hey, i'tbeen 10 months, so give me a break... natalie From sienna@yabbs Wed Jul 27 12:07:27 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Faith@yabbs Subject: re: live/let live Date: Wed Jul 27 12:07:27 1994 I think you hit the nail on the head, sis! *hugs* Love, Dee From alarm@yabbs Wed Jul 27 16:26:26 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: Faith@yabbs Subject: re: live/let live Date: Wed Jul 27 16:26:26 1994 You said, >I don't however really believe in attending church. I was raised Catholic >and saw a lot of hyppocricy in the church. My couple of pennies goes something like this. I think it's too bad that so many people have abandoned the church because of the problems in it. I realize that the problems are real, but maybe if those who really saw the problems got involved in church we could take care of some of them. I did not grow up in a religious household, instead I went to church on my own when I was 11 or 12. I had a personal encounter with Jesus Christ and accepted him as my savior and tried to be his follower. A problem occured when one of the leaders in the church who befriended me turned out to be homosexual and tried to molest me. I definitely felt sexually abused, but I will not go into the details. I never told anyone, I just left the church. Later on I realized that this man's sin was not God's fault and I returned to church. More problems arose, I left, then later found another church. I felt God calling me but didn't know how to follow him. I needed the church to help me learn how to follow Jesus. Finally I found a real church that, although it still had its hypocrites and other shortcomings, really taught me to be a disciple of Jesus. Now it happens that I have moved a lot since then and have attended several other churches, non of them have been perfect. Now I am preaching and ministering in my own church. I have a new vision of the church and what it means and what it can mean for people to be a part of it. Jesus said, where two or three are gathered there I am in your midst. The church is the place where we meet Jesus in a fuller experience than we can have on our own. My own metaphor for the church is a detox center for the saved. The only way to be saved, cleansed or your sins, made acceptable in God's sight is by believing in Jesus and following him. But once you become a follower of Jesus; a disciple. You are still not perfect this side of heaven. We bring our selves into the church and since we are not perfect we bring sin and hypocricy into the church just like everyone else. The church as a detox center helps us to clean up those areas of our lives that we are blind to. Those sins that we do not realize that we have can be recognized by others in the church and they can help us to grow. We can also help them to grow as we see where they are failing to walk the faithful life. Only as a community of believers can we really grow. The church is not perfect, but if we are daring enough to be a truthful people we will be able to accomplish some good in this world. thanks for listening to me ramble just a bit, alarm From sienna@yabbs Wed Jul 27 20:09:51 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Winds of Change Date: Wed Jul 27 20:09:51 1994 Ok....here we go.... We all know how I feel about the church...one of the main issues in the church right now which is just STEEPED in hypocrisy is the issue regarding homosexuality.... Now, my best friend is homosexual, and has been since we were kids. I have watched him struggle and struggle with this. He is a christian, but unfortunately he is condemned by the church for being homosexual and condemned by others in the gay community because he has religious beliefs.... I read some things on this subject which I am going to try and paraphrase. Bear with me... If we, as Christians, are going to minister to gay people in Christ's name, we first must stop viewing homosexual orientation and homesexual persons in the abstract. We must allow them to become PERSONALIZED to us...As we stop keeping homosexuality at a distance, as an abstract, then we can see it up close, with a face, as something that happens to REAL PEOPLE. And we can begin to feel the pain of bearing a stigma and experiencing the oppression and fear as though it is something that were happing to us. We would much rather deny that there could be people out there who have different needs - instead choosing to condemn those whose views are different as being sinful and wrong. This has been programmed into us from early childhood. People are Christians first, human beings second, and homo- sexual last... It isn't our place to judge...it is our place to LOVE. Some people don't want to understand. And there are many unqualified moral judges sitting in a lot od church pews. It is interesting to note that Jesus said nothing about this issue. But he DID say a lot about judging. A person's homosexuality has no bearing upon whether or not he is good or evil. It has no bearing upon whether or not that person has accepted Christ as thei Lord and Savior, or whether that person believes that Jesus died for them. Their sexuality is only one aspect of their lives - just as it is one aspect of yours, re- gardless of whether you are gay or straight. We as Christians are called to love one another as _our- selves_, not to love one another except when the other person's sexuality is different than our own... More to come..... From sienna@yabbs Wed Jul 27 20:23:13 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Winds of Change II Date: Wed Jul 27 20:23:13 1994 RELIGIOUS THINKING IN TRANSITION -------------------------------- In the past few years, theological thinkers have begun to review the biblical passages that condemn homosexuality as unnatural and sinful. They are realizing that the few condemnatory verses in scripture arose at a time when the authority of the father in the family and the clan was supreme and unquestioned. In those perilous Old Testament times, having children was a mojor priority for the survival and prosperity of the community. But knowledge of sexuality and procreation was INACCURATE. It was thought that each male "seed" was a new being. They assumed that the mother only provided an incubator for the baby. Therefore, any sexual activity that "wasted the seed" was considered a threat to the tribe. Coitus interruptus, male homosexuality, and masturbation were all deemedserving of a judgement as severe as execution. The male heads of the families also determined the general attitudes of the clan. While they esposed heterosexuality, they were opposed to thelity of the sexes. Women were viewd as property, valued for their ability to have sons. Female children were sometimes put to death, and women had few rights. Today, the majority of people in Western civilization consider such beliefs as outrageous violations of human dignity. As for homosexuality, the old patriarchs scornfully, even cruelly, rejected it, as evidenced by their practice of anal rape against enemies as a way of humiliating then. In this practice, a man was using a man as he would a woman - as inferior to be dominated. Such practices and beliefs do not fit into our present knowledge of women or homosexuals. Neither do they fit the needs of our society. But the old ideas die with difficulty, particularly in fundamentalist churches. However, there is hope...as theologians are now considering the scientific evidence that homosexuality is simply a natural condition for some people in all cultures. More and more are maintaing that religious view of gayness should not be limited by outdated attitudes. A more generous spirit applies the universal biblical message of loving your neighbor and being fair and nonjudgemental to all persons - gay as well as heterosexual. More to come..... From Natalie@yabbs Wed Jul 27 22:11:32 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: live/let live Date: Wed Jul 27 22:11:32 1994 just one little thing...how did you have a personal encounter with jesus? this is something i just can't understand....could you please explain? (part of my problem with it is that my sister is a fundie who only goes to church sporadically but when she does she speaks in tongues...and when she's not in church she's preaching but not practicing...she'd fit in real well with some, no, i mean ll the televangelists) natalie From Pele@yabbs Thu Jul 28 00:42:01 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: Winds of Change Date: Thu Jul 28 00:42:01 1994 I like the whole message. One thing. I would not dare speak out against homosexuality. For 3 reasons and I hope that other christians in the world would make a similar decision: Reason #1:I have no idea what exactly God thinks on the matter. I have been told by many and read for myself that God looks down on it as abominable (Sp?). Leviticus 18:22 is often quoted specifically and then Corinithians something. The fact is I have looked at all those points that you made and decided that I simply don't know so why judge? Reason #2:Even if I did know I would have to leave it to God. As Faith pointed out the Bible says "Judge Not that ye may not be judged" Jesus said that one. So...I can't judge..so says the Big Cheeze. Reason #3:If I or the church had the audacity to speak out against Homosexuality and condemn the people involved...then I would have to speak out against fornication, and adultery and all other "sexual sin." I am simply not in a position to do so. I would have to "remove the mote" from my eye before removing the beam from the homosexual populations ( I think I got that backwards but you get my point) Anyway...I went through a lot to agree with you. I do have to say though...that I do look at homosexuals as individuals and as people and it is not the individuals that should be frowned upon or told that they are sinners. We all are. It is simply the act that is forbidden by the Bible and I believe that if the Church is going to hold a strong position against the act (or the people) then they will have to condemn everyone that has ever had premarital or extramarital sex. Soo....I don't think it's up to us... Ok...enough of my blabbing...thanx for listening -Pele- From sienna@yabbs Thu Jul 28 00:48:54 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Winds of Change Date: Thu Jul 28 00:48:54 1994 I just wanted to say thanks for responding. BTW: I am not gay, but I have a vested interest in this issue because my best friend in the whole world IS gay. I have watched him struggle with this for years. I love him, and it hurts me when people who claim to have the love of Jesus in their hearts tell him he should be dead and that AIDS is something we should all fall on our knees and thank God for...Frankly, that makes me sick to my stomach. I will have more to say on this matter. I was just wondering what kind of response I would get from you all. *hugs* Dee From Pele@yabbs Thu Jul 28 01:45:21 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: Winds of Change Date: Thu Jul 28 01:45:21 1994 I'm glad that this is brought up. A lot of people in the church have to come to grips with their homosexual-phobia (I don't like the word homo-phobia because it means "fear of man" which is sort of a disease I have so...) Well...that's it. **HUG** -Pele- From robtelee@yabbs Thu Jul 28 01:57:42 1994 From: robtelee@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: re: Winds of Change Date: Thu Jul 28 01:57:42 1994 It is my understanding that we should hate the sin, but love the sinner. It would be up to the individual "sinner" to realize whether or not what they sre doing is wrong after consulting Scripture and prayer. I am NOT a fit judge to say "what you are doing is wrong !" That is not for me to say. I have done things that were wrong in God's sight. After reading scripture, I realized that what I had done was wrong. I still slip up every once in a while. But I feel that I am forgiven by God because I go to Him through His son, Jesus Christ with a contrite heart. This helps me get through my life and some difficult times. And I know God is with me.. I knew it definitely last Wednesday around 5:00 pm on a rain-slick road, hanging by my seat-belts upside down. That experience has proven, TO ME, that God does watch over me. robtelee From Faith@yabbs Thu Jul 28 02:05:26 1994 From: Faith@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: live/let live Date: Thu Jul 28 02:05:26 1994 ******************************* Ok, hoping this first part of my message doesn't get cut off like it seems to be doing a lot lately. Uh I I really like what you had to say Alarm. I think it's awesome that you didn't give up on the church and I think what you are doing sounds really great. Maybe I should have clarified something about what I had said. I did see a lot of hypocrisy in the church and I went to other churches of the same religion, still didn't "feel" anything in my heart there. I could never continued on with anything in my life unless I felt that what I was doing was right, with my whole heart. So, I figure that religion isn't right for me. I am not even sure if any particular church is right for me at the moment. I have(pardon the pun) faith that the Lord knows what He is doing for me. He'll take me to the right church when He is ready to, like He will help me work things out in my life. I know to some people that sounds flakey.(sp?) I just know what churches and religions aren't right for me. Sometimes it's hard to have faith in things but I am trying and seeing one of my sisters and her husband helps me. That is a long story, I may tell another time. Basically my sister and her husband are Christians. He is a minister in Montana and they are more charismatic, tending to believe in laying of hands, speaking in tongues, spiritual warfare, etc. etc. I believe in what believe in but not to the same extent sometimes. I'll tell more about them if anyone is interested some other time. It really is an exciting story, trust me. :) Good testimony too. :) Babbling on as usual, Faith From Phreddie@yabbs Thu Jul 28 03:10:06 1994 From: Phreddie@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: Winds of Change Date: Thu Jul 28 03:10:06 1994 Personally, I really do not care about how people think about homosexuality.. well, actually, I just don't like the fact that some people prejudice others due to teh fact of their sexual preference.. BUT I do remember somewhere in the bible (in my 17 years of Christian training.. jeez, a lot of good that did ) that homosexuality was against god's will.. somethign like it didn't do any good because he told us all to be fruitful and multiply and that homosexuality is therefore evil because it doesn't follow his will.. somethign to that extent.. Remember, this is just whaht's in the bible.. now what I personally think.. er, not what I personally think.. From pixy@yabbs Thu Jul 28 03:14:54 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: whoopteedoo Date: Thu Jul 28 03:14:54 1994 In message re: whoopteedoo, Natalie said: > yes i'm sure about that...i had to read the damn thing for my class and i > remember thinking how fucking ludicrous it was...he might of had a dream > too, i can't remember...alli really remember is the hallucination ion the > woods and eusebius's overwhelming awe of constantine...hey, i'tbeen 10 > months, so give me a break... Yea, it is pretty ludicrous--but pretty cool, too. I mean, the last time i was hallucinating all i saw was trails, but at least i had the insight to realize it wasn't real. pixy From pixy@yabbs Thu Jul 28 03:18:38 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: Winds of Change II Date: Thu Jul 28 03:18:38 1994 In message Winds of Change II, sienna said: > as a way of humiliating then. In this practice, a man was using a man as > he would a woman - as inferior to be dominated. Such practices and beliefs > do not fit into our present knowledge of women or homosexuals. Neither do > they fit the needs of our society. It's interesting to hear that they would do that. That's exactly how dogs show dominance over one another. pixy From Dee@yabbs Thu Jul 28 03:51:01 1994 From: Dee@yabbs To: pixy@yabbs Subject: re: Winds of Change II Date: Thu Jul 28 03:51:01 1994 It IS interesting, isn't it....resorting to an example from the beasts around us....to humilate...kind of like saying "not only are you like a woman but as mangy as a dog." Hehehehe, I kinda like that. (weird, aren't I?) Dee aka sienna From sienna@yabbs Thu Jul 28 12:23:01 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: pixy@yabbs Subject: re: Winds of Change Date: Thu Jul 28 12:23:01 1994 I like the way you think! *hug* Dee :) From sienna@yabbs Thu Jul 28 12:51:30 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: More Winds of Change Date: Thu Jul 28 12:51:30 1994 There is so much to be said on this topic....however, I am trying to be as brief as possible. Point of reference: James B. Nelson's "Embodiment: An Approach to Sexuality and Christian Theology" There are four theological positions toward homosexuality in the contemporary religious community: (1) a rejecting-punitive attitude (homosexuality should not be accepted and should be punished), (2) a rejecting-nonpunitive attitude (homosexuality is seen as forbidden by scriptures, but homosexual persons should be treated with forgiving grace), (3) a qualified acceptance position (homosexuality is tolerable if it is deemed irreversible and if the relationship is monogamous), and (4) full acceptance (homosexuality should be placed on a par with heterosexuality and the same ethical principles should be applied to both). THE REJECTING-PUNITIVE ATTITUDE ------------------------------- "So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female created He them... and God said unto them "Be fruitful and multiply." Genesis 1:27, 28 To many readers of the Bible this passage offers scriptural proof that God's natural design for humans is heterosexual union. For them, this proves that any sexual expression other than heterosexuality is unnatural and sinful. Isolated passages from the Bible are quoted by biblical literalists to establish this position. "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination." Leviticus 18:22 "If a man lie with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them." Leviticus 21:13 But it also says in Leviticus: "If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and adulteress shall be put to death." Leviticus 20:10 While it is clear that these scriptures are important to those who adopt a rejecting-punitive attitude, it is strange how they pull back from the literal punishment prescribed. It is also interesting to note how scriptural passages are unfairly selected to bring homosexuality under attack. We are told that gays are going to be sent to hell. Rarely are we told that the same fate awaits those who are greedy for money (99.9% of the population), who are heavy drinkers (alcoholism is an epidemic here in the US), or who have sex outside of marriage (I myself can be included in that bunch). Nor do these same bible-thumping do-gooders mention passages from Leviticus which forbid the eating of rabbit, oysters, clams, shrimp and pork. More to come on the Rejecting-Punitive issue........ Dee From alarm@yabbs Thu Jul 28 17:28:33 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: encounter Date: Thu Jul 28 17:28:33 1994 You asked me to explain how I had a personal encounter with Jesus. This may get a little philosophical, but try to bear with me. I am getting ready right now to go to church and teach a Bible study on Acts 9 where Paul encounters Jesus on the Damascus road. While my "encounter" was not of a physical nature like Paul's was, it was still a real encounter. After studying the different defenses that people give for the existence of God I have chosen to use the experiential defense, except that I try not to put in into a defensive posture. Here is how it goes, sort a: If you were blind you would have no experience with the phenomena of a desert orange and purple sunset. I might try to explain it to you and you may get some sort of very limited idea of it, but without the experience you will never really understand what I am talking about. I have had experiences with God, but they are not the kind of experience that corresponds with any of the natural senses that you have. It is a spiritual experience. It takes spiritual eyes and ears to see and hear God. When you read the Bible and the Holy Spirit dwells in you He confirms the reality of what you are reading. Calvin spoke of this type of thing. Jesus often said _for him who has ears to hear let him hear_. Isaiah said _having ears they do not hear_ or something like that. The only solution that I can really give you is that I you will truly seek God and ask him to reveal himself to you he can do it; I cannot. As you can see, this is not much of a defense of God, but then, neither is the ontological argument, or the cosmological argument, or the teleological argument. What I see my role as, is showing people where God is already at work in their lives. If I knew more about where you were spiritually, I might (might) be able to help you see where you may have already encountered God, because I think that it probably already happened to some extent. I had a friend who became a christian and he said afterwards, now I can see that God has been at work in my life here, and here, and here and I never saw it before. It too conversion before he could truly see. alarm, btw, that is really sort of my name, it's Terry A. Larm :) => alarm From alarm@yabbs Thu Jul 28 17:32:34 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: Faith@yabbs Subject: re: live/let live Date: Thu Jul 28 17:32:34 1994 I think the key to finding God is humility. IMHO, alarm From Natalie@yabbs Thu Jul 28 20:12:08 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: encounter Date: Thu Jul 28 20:12:08 1994 one of the reasons i have a very difficult in believing in a kind and forgiving god is because my mother died young. there was no reason for her death other than the fact that she refused to go to a doctor for her chest pains (me & my sisterasked her to go to one the night before she died). and i wanted to kill the ppl at the funeral who came up to me and said that her work on this earth was done, and that God must have wanted her in heaven. first of all, her work was NOT done on this earth. she wasn't done raising me & my sister. granted, i was almost done w/ high school, but i still needed a mother. and my sister was still in junior high at the time. and another thing that happened at the funeral was that a friend of my sister's told her that my mother was going to burn in hell because she didn't go to church. anyon who knew my mother would have known that she wasa religious person, if nota church going one. we still have those cheesy plaques in the house that have various and sundry religious sayings on them. we were not allowed to take the Lord's name in vain but we were free to think for ourselves concerning religion. that REALLY pissed me off. no one can know where my mother went after she died, and i wanted to KILL that girl for her audacity. i guess that's enough ranting and raving for now... natalie From Badger01@yabbs Thu Jul 28 21:27:13 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: pixy@yabbs Subject: re: Chi-Rho Date: Thu Jul 28 21:27:13 1994 Actually, I think it's AD HOC SIGNO VINCES..but who knows? I was tripping through Latin, anyway. Badger01 From Badger01@yabbs Thu Jul 28 21:32:56 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Religon and Homosexuality Date: Thu Jul 28 21:32:56 1994 I've gone through the bible and read those sectioons on Homsexuality... and you know what? I KNOW LESS NOW THAN I DID THEN! They talk a lot about "Unclean" and "Lying with" and stuff like that, but they is short on actual "Don't have anal intercourse" or "Don't love in a carnal way someone the same sex as you"...there are prohibitions against SODOMY, yes...but Sodomy is just WHAT THEY DID IN SODOM according to the bible...and they never tell you WHAT THEY DID IN SODOM...I assume so I don't get any ideas. As far as Homosexuality in the Catholic Church...if they are against it when it happens between consenting adults...shouldn't they oppose it between adults and children? I think they here me knocking...and I think I'm coming in...anbd I'm bringing Father Porter's photo album with me. Badger01 Doesn't care what anyone does as long as they don't do it to me From Badger01@yabbs Thu Jul 28 21:35:44 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Winds of Change Date: Thu Jul 28 21:35:44 1994 Pele makes a good point...plus: There are Homophobics, or Homosexual phobics..and then there are the Homosexual Haters. You know the ones...the ones who are just hoping that they get a chance to put a few people to death because they are gay. Usually the same ones who aren't real fond of jews, african-americans(Or just africans either), or in fact anyone who isn't JUST LIKE THEM...which means they hate everyone, if you get down to it. Badger01 sees the zealots moving up the hill From Badger01@yabbs Thu Jul 28 21:38:06 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: Just a thought Date: Thu Jul 28 21:38:06 1994 All people are inherently evil. Discuss amongstr yourselves (I'm getting a little Verklempt) I'll get back to this monday ( I do believe it) Badger01 Squashing snails with ecstasy From sienna@yabbs Fri Jul 29 00:29:47 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: encounter Date: Fri Jul 29 00:29:47 1994 *hug* I love ya sis Dee From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 29 00:36:21 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: encounter Date: Fri Jul 29 00:36:21 1994 That post was really inspiring. It said a lot of what I feel but never had the brain to put into words. Thank you. -Pele- From Pele@yabbs Fri Jul 29 00:45:33 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: re: Just a thought Date: Fri Jul 29 00:45:33 1994 In message Just a thought, Badger01 said: > All people are inherently evil. I refuse to believe that. I will concede that all people have the capacity for evil but I will say with equal vigor that all people have the capacity for good. To simply say that all people are at the core evil, defies my belief that we can ever go to Heaven (If it truly exists). The Bible (My only real religious book of reference) states that we are "born in sin and shaped in iniquity" and that "all are sinners." I would not disagree with either of these statements because I simply have no reason to. In my experience, however, every time that I begin to doubt the entire human race (like when I was robbed, or harassed by others, or even molested) I always would run into an indivdual who was so selfless and loving that you could do nothing but regain your lost faith. That's all I have to say. I believe in people. That may make me an optimist, or even and idiot but I can't give up hope. It's the only thing that we have been given an immeasureable amount of. -Pele- From Xela@yabbs Fri Jul 29 01:14:59 1994 From: Xela@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Just a thought Date: Fri Jul 29 01:14:59 1994 Morals are abstract concepts. Man is only capable of good or bad, because he has defined and catagorized certain behaviors into class "good" or class "bad," and had built institutions of power to shoud those concepts. People have no inherent nature; they are how others see them, and they react accordingly. My two percent of a dollar, X From pixy@yabbs Fri Jul 29 01:22:01 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: Winds of Change Date: Fri Jul 29 01:22:01 1994 In message re: Winds of Change, sienna said: > I like the way you think! *hug* > > Dee > > :) Aw shucks! *Blush* pixy From pixy@yabbs Fri Jul 29 01:40:11 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: re: Chi-Rho Date: Fri Jul 29 01:40:11 1994 In message re: Chi-Rho, Badger01 said: > Actually, I think it's AD HOC SIGNO VINCES..but who knows? That would be some seriously bastardized Latin. I think you have that phrase confused with plain old "AD HOC", a very popular political term. But then again, if Constantine is going to trip out in the woods all alone, there's really no telling what he saw; he coulda seen dancing multi-colored bears singing "Truckin'". pixy From Badger01@yabbs Fri Jul 29 09:25:47 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Just a thought Date: Fri Jul 29 09:25:47 1994 The bible mentions Original sin. Sin for something You didnn't do is on your soul. You are inherently evil. Badger01 From Badger01@yabbs Fri Jul 29 09:28:57 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: pixy@yabbs Subject: re: Chi-Rho Date: Fri Jul 29 09:28:57 1994 Actually, I think Constatine was doing this: Constantine: Say, Claudius? Claudius: Yes, dread soverign? CON: Fuck, is that a Chi-Rho up on the sun? CLA: Sire, I don' think you should be looking at the sun... CON: Yes...I Think it IS the Chi-Rho! CLA: Sire...Have you been eating those bastard shrooms again? CON: And next to the Chi-Rho...S A T U R D A Y Night....S A T U R D A Y Night... Maybe that is what it was like. Badgre01 From sienna@yabbs Fri Jul 29 10:18:38 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: re: Chi-Rho Date: Fri Jul 29 10:18:38 1994 Thanks, Matt, that made me laugh! You have a wonderful sense of humor! *hug* Dee From alarm@yabbs Fri Jul 29 18:55:27 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: encounter Date: Fri Jul 29 18:55:27 1994 Natalie, I don't blame you a bit for being upset at God and especially at the ppl at the funeral. I find that Christians are often the worst ppl to have around at a funeral. Some of them say the stupidest things. don't be alarm-ed From alarm@yabbs Fri Jul 29 19:10:55 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: re: Just a thought Date: Fri Jul 29 19:10:55 1994 Badger01 said, >The bible mentions Original sin. Actually, it does not use the words Original sin. The word Original never occurs in the Bible. (I looked it up in a concordance.) The concept of original sin was thought up by theologians like Augustine. Biblically speaking though, the Bible does say that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. It also says that there is none righteous, no not one. And then of course there is the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis committing the first sin. So, in a way, you are right, the Bible does support your position. Then again, I read something by William Willimon (I think) that said that he thinks that only Christians can really sin. What he meant was that only Christians know that they are sinning, or maybe it was that only Christians really face God with sin, the rest of the world just sort of goes about its own business without regard to how God is involved in their lives, whether good or bad. Actually, I should probably read the article again. :) I thought it was interesting. sounding the alarm From Segal@yabbs Fri Jul 29 22:07:41 1994 From: Segal@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: re: Just a thought Date: Fri Jul 29 22:07:41 1994 I think you misunderstand the concept of original sin. It does not condemn you to inherent sinfulness. When man committed the first sin, ie. eating from the Tree of Knowledge, he separated himself from God. There was a spiritual death which the Lord warned of and the eventual physsical death that later occured. As a result of this sin, all mankind born of Adam's seed are born into that sin. Paul said that "We are born in sin and shaped in iniquity." However, you are missing a point. It is not whether or not we are sinful that is of argument...It is whether we are evil. Evil is a concept that not only intails committing sin but also being malicious and destructive in committing those sins. In reality most people committ sins without knowing that they are being sinful. I refuse to believe that all mankind is evil. Sinful, I can agree with...but Evil denies the presence of good and therefore there is no hope for freedom because there is an absence of the ability to comprehend good. So...I will revise your statement and say "Mankind is Inherently sinful." I believe that humans have a great capacity for evil but have an equally great capacity for good. My $0.02 -Segal From pixy@yabbs Sat Jul 30 03:28:03 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: re: Chi-Rho Date: Sat Jul 30 03:28:03 1994 In message re: Chi-Rho, Badger01 said: > Actually, I think Constatine was doing this: > > Constantine: Say, Claudius? > Claudius: Yes, dread soverign? > CON: Fuck, is that a Chi-Rho up on the sun? > CLA: Sire, I don' think you should be looking at the sun... > CON: Yes...I Think it IS the Chi-Rho! > CLA: Sire...Have you been eating those bastard shrooms again? > CON: And next to the Chi-Rho...S A T U R D A Y Night....S > A T U R D A Y Night... Well, there probalbly would've been alot more stuttering on Claudius's part--he was famous for that. And shrooms are fine, but remember what Olivia said in IClaudius: "Don't eat the Figs". pixy From pixy@yabbs Sat Jul 30 05:26:47 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Date: Sat Jul 30 05:26:47 1994 Uh oh! I just had another one of those random thoughts again... I've been brooding over the number of sects christianity has. I couldn't figure out who was right or wrong. Then it hit me while I was watching Forrest Gump: "Interpreting the Bible is like a box of chocalates; you never know what you're gonna get." Okay, so the story is bogus and stupid, but that doesn't mean I haven't made a good point. Hmmm. pixy From Badger01@yabbs Sat Jul 30 14:05:19 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: Segal@yabbs Subject: re: Just a thought Date: Sat Jul 30 14:05:19 1994 Don't revise my statement. I don't believe in the bible..I was just using it to tweak people, the way Republicans do. I truly believe that all humanity has evil in them. I don't argue against good...I just think that the evil will out. Badger01 Don't trust em any further than he can throw em From Badger01@yabbs Sat Jul 30 14:07:14 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: pixy@yabbs Subject: re: Date: Sat Jul 30 14:07:14 1994 "Starting a Religon based on the teachings of a carpenters son from Bethelehem who was hung up on a cross and who everybody who knew him SWEARS was the Son Of God is a lot like a box of choclates....you have to spit out the cherry nugat ones...they taste bad." Badger01 In a Very Caramello mood From sienna@yabbs Sat Jul 30 18:06:53 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Winds of Change III Date: Sat Jul 30 18:06:53 1994 Talking about the rejecting-punitive idea of homosexuality and how it relates to religion... Nelson himself offered some interesting speculations regarding the selective fixation on homosexuality and the highly charged anxiety and rage that lie behind it. for example, from a Freudian perspective (come on guys, I am a PSYCH major, you know I had to bring this up sometime), he points out that even people whose sex life has been exclusively heterosexual, there may be homosexual feelings present even if relegated to an unconscious level. Freud's own idea of reaction formation ( a defense mecahnism that enable an individual to express an unacceptable impulse by transforming it into its opposite) shows that one way we cope with our own unwanted impulses is by attacking them in others. The male-dominated tradition contains exaggerated images of masculinity that trigger strong anxiety about homosexuality among men. Homosexuality is viewed as unmanly. It threatens clear masculine gender identity, and the ground rules that establish what safe and normal male feelings are supposed to be. Any crossing of the forbidden line unleashes feelings of high danger. The gay male seems a threat to the importance of super-masculinity. Many gay men refuse to give up the softer, more gentle "feminie" qualities which macho traditions have taught are "only for women." Thus, anthropologists have noted the strong tendency of patriarchal cultures to define homosexuality as the "unspeakable sin," while matriarchal cultures have an entirely different viewpoint. In the Old Testament, there is sever condemnation of male homosexuality, while lesbianism isn't even MENTIONED. It is only gay men who suffer the condemnation of the Old Testament. And yet, we can hear the rejecting-punitive message being preached from so many pulpits today. Next thought-provoking issue I will raise will be the rejecting-nonpunitive attitude, although it may be a while before I post again. Comments are needed, because there is so much we still need to learn, and I want other people to give me feedback... Dee From Zbadba@yabbs Sat Jul 30 23:30:51 1994 From: Zbadba@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: for the record Date: Sat Jul 30 23:30:51 1994 Lots of messages here talking about good and evil. Am I the only one here who doesn't believe in these concepts as absolutes? There's a lot of sweeping statements about evil and good that make the assumption of absolutes. Not to say belief in absolutes is "wrong" (or for that matter, "evil"); it is the basis of many (if not most) religions. I am just curious if anyone out there (besides myself) rejects the notion of moral absolutes (or absolutes in general) From Pele@yabbs Sun Jul 31 00:06:43 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Zbadba@yabbs Subject: re: for the record Date: Sun Jul 31 00:06:43 1994 In message for the record, Zbadba said: > Am I the only one here who doesn't believe in these concepts as absolutes? No..you're not. I don't think of evil or good but of the union of the two to make a whole person. This may seem to contradict my earlier statements concerning the matter but it really doesn't. Badger said that makind is inherently evil (or something to that effect). I responded in kind by saying that that is true but that it is also true that mankind is inherently good. The two are linked very closely. I like the concept that mankind has the eternal struggle between good and evil throughout their lifetime but that neither is stronger than the other and that one force will not win out over the other. It's hard to say that a man, therefore is good, or that he is evil, just that he acts differently than our moral standards allow. Just a quick thought....If it was considered good to kill at least once per day, would a person who saves another person's life be considered evil? Hmmmmmm....Just a quick thought. -pele- From pixy@yabbs Sun Jul 31 02:12:47 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: re: Date: Sun Jul 31 02:12:47 1994 In message re: , Badger01 said: > "Starting a Religon based on the teachings of a carpenters son from > Bethelehem who was hung up on a cross and who everybody who knew him > SWEARS was the Son Of God is a lot like a box of choclates....you have to > spit out the cherry nugat ones...they taste bad." Yeah, and the other day one of my girlfriend's friends gave her a lecture about the evil of adultery. My girlfriend laughed about the whole thing; she said she was sure her friend didn't have a cherry nugat in her box of chocalates. I looked at her confused. But one thing i do know is that this whole Gumpmania thing is sweeping the nation. Who needs the teachings of Jesus when we have the whimsical quotes of a fictional man with a 75 I.Q.? pixy From Natalie@yabbs Sun Jul 31 08:01:46 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: pixy@yabbs Subject: re: Date: Sun Jul 31 08:01:46 1994 it's cause it's such a goooooooooood movie :) natalie From Zbadba@yabbs Sun Jul 31 16:12:42 1994 From: Zbadba@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: for the record Date: Sun Jul 31 16:12:42 1994 You're still bandying about thhe words "good" and "evil" without defining them. What is good? What is evil? Who or what sets the standard? Personally, I don't believe in good and evil, but that's just me. From Faith@yabbs Sun Jul 31 18:22:55 1994 From: Faith@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: good...evil Date: Sun Jul 31 18:22:55 1994 define good and evil? Faith From Faith@yabbs Sun Jul 31 18:30:46 1994 From: Faith@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Date: Sun Jul 31 18:30:46 1994 Ok, found out the editor I was using was cutting off my messages...What I I was supposed to say was: But can anyone define good and evil? The two are always someone's opinion only. Otherwise we would ALL have to agree on what is good and what is evil and I don't mean just us, I mean the entire world. That's my opinion on it all. Babbling on as usual .... Faith From 8charact@yabbs Mon Aug 1 00:24:13 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: live/let live Date: Mon Aug 1 00:24:13 1994 Liked some of your ideas in this. Perhaps "Church" does make mistakes since we are all human. The Church is Holy, but its members are often weak and sinful. They are often good too. Signed, 8charact From 8charact@yabbs Mon Aug 1 00:29:55 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: live/let live Date: Mon Aug 1 00:29:55 1994 Some of my thoughts on personal encounters with Jesus... Just because a person has a personal encounter with Jesus does not mean that she/he has changed her/his lifestyle. My understanding of this personal encounter is that it is a launching point.... The person who has it must understand it , accept it and put it into action in their lives. It is also a dynamic process that must be developed and nurtured. Signed, 8charact From 8charact@yabbs Mon Aug 1 00:41:38 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: When good things happen.... Date: Mon Aug 1 00:41:38 1994 Natalie, Could I suggest a short book for you to read? It has some excellent ideas and suggestions on death/badness/misfortune. The title of the book is, When Bad Things Happen to Good People. It is an excellent book and provides superb solutions to issues that you described in your encounter message. I have been teaching religion in a high school for 14+ years and have some ideas on what you are describing. Also, several of those years have involved teaching a course entitled, "Death and Dying". See what you think of this book and let me know your ideas on it. Interested in hearing your thoughts about it. See ya, 8charact From 8charact@yabbs Mon Aug 1 00:48:22 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: encounter Date: Mon Aug 1 00:48:22 1994 Alarm-ed, I am not sure that they really understand what they are saying and what they mean. They are not realizing the impact of their words on the survivors. Usually most people say things at wakes/funerals because they think it is the correct thing to say. Also, they may feel that they don't know what to say and it just sounds good..... 8charact From Natalie@yabbs Mon Aug 1 01:25:29 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: 8charact@yabbs Subject: re: When good things happen.... Date: Mon Aug 1 01:25:29 1994 um...i've got enough books on religion to read atthe moment....i'm minoring in it at school, my area is gnostocism and early christianity, so i really don't have time for much else....those two bits are pretty big areas to cover... natalie From Natalie@yabbs Mon Aug 1 01:28:23 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: 8charact@yabbs Subject: re: encounter Date: Mon Aug 1 01:28:23 1994 oh, so telling someone that their mother is in hell because she didn't go to church is a CORRECT thing to say? i think not. when you lose a family member suddenly you're in enough pain w/o some thoughtless, sanctimonious, self righteous holier than thou CHILD telling you where that family member is. the irony of it all is that my sister started going to that church soon after. my dad went once and said it was really cultish. she goes to another church now, but she doesn't go nearly as often. which is good, since she doesn't practice what she preaches. natalie who is still a bit hostile to born again fundies From Phreddie@yabbs Mon Aug 1 02:24:56 1994 From: Phreddie@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: More Winds of Change Date: Mon Aug 1 02:24:56 1994 Ya know, after reading that, I think that it implies that the use of birth control is evil.. hmm.. that doesn't seem quite right.. From pixy@yabbs Mon Aug 1 02:28:41 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Date: Mon Aug 1 02:28:41 1994 I sure hope Pat robertson is somewhere on this bbs, because this post is more or less addressed to the asshole. So here it goes Pat, and I want you to know that I'm stoned as I'm writing this you bible thumpin' sack o' shit. For the past few weeks the entire metro Atlanta area has suffered a continuing onslaught of ad hoc efforts to help out, and even exploit, all the people in southern Georgia who've become flood victims this month. Now, of course I sympathize with their plight. I've even considered helping them. But I still have to see some humour in the situation. You see, anyone familiar with some of your more flighty christians--the ones who don't laugh or get mad while watching the 700 Club--have some strange ideas about natural disasters. If you watch the 700 Club--I watch it every monday so that I'll be angry for the rest of the week--you know that Pat loves to pick on poor old California every time they have a natural disaster. He called their last earthquake and forest fire punishment from God for all the sin that goes on out there. Let me clarify "sin" for those of you who don't watch the 700 Club. Sin is homosexuality; abortion; being black, hispanic, or oriental; murder--unles the government does it; or beign a socialist. California is ripe with all these fine hobbies, thus Pat believes that God is trying to shake some sense into them--he either doesn't believe in or understand basic plate tectonics. So now I must choke back a chuckle over the flooding in South Georgia. Maybe God feels that all those backwards religious nuts that pimple the face of the south need good whipping. Makes me almost want to say, "Go God!" So far, Pat hasn't seen it the same way, yet. pixy P.S. don't take this post too terribly serriously From Phreddie@yabbs Mon Aug 1 02:32:44 1994 From: Phreddie@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: encounter Date: Mon Aug 1 02:32:44 1994 ack.. majortiy of sects out there are just cults.. sure, they quote stuff from the bible, just the parts they want.. ohwell.. Phreddie.. who susually doesn't think this deep ever From Pele@yabbs Mon Aug 1 02:41:05 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Good vs. Evil Date: Mon Aug 1 02:41:05 1994 The Question was asked: Can anyone define good and/or evil? No. At least I sure as heck can't. But I know what is evil for me, and I know what has been taught to me as good and evil. It's a personl decision that people have to come to grips with. I have a concience and when I do something wrong then I feel guilty. It's as simple as that. I don't think that I am evil or that what I did was evil.... Let me start over..... I can't define good. Because what is good for one person may be bad for another. So...good...I can't define. Similarly I can't define bad, because bad for one person may be good for another. Perhaps we should look at it like this though. Intentions. Someone can do something good with good intentions (good can be bad, like I said before). In that case...it's good. Someone can do something bad with good intentions. In that case, it's bad but not evil. (For example, someone tells a lie to protect a friend...this is according to my religious beliefs and that differs from person to person so I don't expect everyone to agree that this is bad) Someone can do something good with bad intentions (like freeing the slaves in order to punish the South for seceding). I'd call this good but not "GOOD" {like holy good}. Finally, someone can do something bad with bad intentions (like killing somebody because you like killing) That, to me is evil. So...in retrospect I guess I think of evil as doing something with purely malicious intents and getting malicious results. I think a lot of people would agree that the Holocaust (sp?) was evil or the murdering of a baby in her sleep is evil. Philosophically it would be great to say there is no such thing but the simple fact is, unless you are psychotic, there are some things that are considered EVIL. My example leave a great deal of leeway for good though. I think a lot more of it exists because we really don't understand it. I think the main problems that we face in our society today, ie. Drugs, Crime, AIDS, etc..all stem from the fact that we don't want to take responsibility for our actions. Evil does exist. No matter what it's definition we know it when we see it. And if we don't say...that's evil when we see it, then we are going to see things like Drugs, Crime, and AIDS and stuff. I may just start a flame-war here but if I did. I'm sorry. That's not my intent. -Pele P.S. I hope I made sense. I mean...I hope you understood what I was trying to say. From sienna@yabbs Mon Aug 1 03:08:35 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: 8charact@yabbs Subject: re: When good things happen.... Date: Mon Aug 1 03:08:35 1994 Excellent book..... from someone who knows what bad things are all about... Dee From sienna@yabbs Mon Aug 1 03:12:53 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Phreddie@yabbs Subject: re: More Winds of Change Date: Mon Aug 1 03:12:53 1994 That is what the Old Testament preached...anything which wasted the "seed" was considered punishable by death. Of course, we know better in today's society. Homosexuality is often condemned because it is a union incapable of procreation. I wonder though, what about all of the millions of people out there who are infertile and cannot have children? Their union is just as "fruitless"...and yet the Old Testament would have us believe that they are sinners. What gets me most about fundies (as Nat calls them) is that theya re so quick to point out the sin yet reluctant to carry out the punishment. *sigh* I have no time to write a better response. I will write more once I get back on Yabbs in a few days...I am going to Virginia Beach for a while. So comments are cool, I will be back in a few days to see what's being discussed. *hugs* dee From sienna@yabbs Mon Aug 1 03:25:48 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Good or Evil: Take II Date: Mon Aug 1 03:25:48 1994 I decided to see what trusty old Webster's had to say about evil... e-vil (ee/v'l) adj. [OE. yfel] 1. morally bad or wrong; wicked. 2. harmful; injurious. 3. unlucky; disasterous -n. 1. wickedness; sin 2. anything causing harm, pain, etc. -e/vil-ly adv. Hmmmmmmm........interesting. So I decided to look up moral... QUICK DEFINITION: 1. dealing with, or capable of, distinguishing between right and wrong. Hmmmmm......verrrrry interesting. Let's look up sin....*evil grin* (looks around innocently) hehehhe sin (sin) n. [OE. synne] 1. the willful breaking of religious or moral law 2. any offense or fault -vi. sinned, sinning to commit a sin -sin/ful adj. -sinner n. Has this helped any? Geez louise people....hmmmm....Maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all, but what they hey....*innocent smile* I think I agree with everyone else, whatever it was that they said about this whole good or evil does it exist debate thingy....Can you tell it is late? My eyes are crossing...wait a sec, is that evil? ;) Dee From Natalie@yabbs Mon Aug 1 08:13:01 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: pixy@yabbs Subject: re: Date: Mon Aug 1 08:13:01 1994 you know, i used to live down the street from pat robertson. his studios and his lame-o university are on centerville road in virginia beach....i usedto live just off of mount pleasant, in chesapeake, shortly AFTER it crossed centerville...and my best friend lives on mount pleasant.... i just wanna see the 4 horsemen take over CBN one of these days... natalie From Badger01@yabbs Mon Aug 1 09:19:30 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: Zbadba@yabbs Subject: re: for the record Date: Mon Aug 1 09:19:30 1994 EVIL FISH! Sorry...I'm a little off this fine morning. Seriously, I happen to nbe one of those Evil believers..I've seen too much of it to disbelieve in it. Good, on the other hand, I haven't seen. Badger01 From Badger01@yabbs Mon Aug 1 09:23:27 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Something on my mind... Date: Mon Aug 1 09:23:27 1994 Well, this IS the Religous base, so I'm gonna tell you all about something that happened to a fgriedn of mine He died. He died by wrapping a bag around his head and then, when that wasn't fast enough, he used a shotgun, and do you know what the religon he practiced (Methodist) told me? He's in Hell. That's what they told me, that he's in hell, that funny, sad, alone little guy is in Hell, but because he repented, Ted Bundy isn't. That's all I have to say. Badger01 From Zbadba@yabbs Mon Aug 1 15:28:14 1994 From: Zbadba@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: good'n'evil'n'sundry stuff Date: Mon Aug 1 15:28:14 1994 Neat responses on the "good" 'n' "evil" bit. I think Faith hit it pretty well with the "personal decision" post. To other noteworthy tidbits: "doing something out of malice is evil" - evil = malice. What is malice? "I know evil exists, I've seen too much, blah blah blah" - great platitudes, but utterly lacking substance. You avoid the question; What is evil? (Hint: It's a trick question). Zbadba Who's home is back in the news again... for guess what... :( From alarm@yabbs Mon Aug 1 19:14:06 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: 8charact@yabbs Subject: Church Date: Mon Aug 1 19:14:06 1994 >The Church is Holy, but its members are often weak and sinful. I have a question, what is the Church? I have never seen a church without members. I have seen church buildings, but I don't think that is what you are referring to. My own understanding is that church comes from the New Testament Greek word ekklesia which means called out ones or gathered ones. The church is the people who are gathered together. Thus, if you separate the people from the church you have no church. sounding the alarm From alarm@yabbs Mon Aug 1 19:23:11 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: 8charact@yabbs Subject: re: When good things happen.... Date: Mon Aug 1 19:23:11 1994 8, I read the book When Bad Things Happen to Good People and didn't like it. His solution to the problem of evil was that God was too weak. I think that's a weak solution. The classic answers to the problem of evil have been to deny that evil exists, or to deny that a good God exists, or to say that that God was too weak to help us, or that God has created a universe that is best for building character and faith and trust (so that evil has a good outcome), or to say that God gave humanity free will and we created evil ourselves by sinning in the garden. Although none of these solutions is completely psychologically satisfying, the first three are lousy answers in my book. sounding the alarm From Badger01@yabbs Mon Aug 1 19:26:04 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: When good things happen.... Date: Mon Aug 1 19:26:04 1994 In Gnosticism, we believe that the reason that there is evil is that the world was the creation of a lesser spirit, not God...and therefore the reason that the God of teh old testament was spiteful and vengeful whereas your new testament God was loving and caring was becaus ethey were not the same guy..The first god was a lesser monad. Badger01 From Hrothgar@yabbs Mon Aug 1 19:34:46 1994 From: Hrothgar@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: Ted Bundy Date: Mon Aug 1 19:34:46 1994 I do think suicide is wrong, whether by Ziploc or Smith&Wesson. Perhaps the methodist church has a point in saying he's going to Hell. Perhaps Ted Bundy isn't because he repented. I guess only God knows. I do think suicide is punishable, but to what degree? A fictional but certainly possible story: A priest has lived his entire life to serve God - he does whatever he believes is right in the face of God. He serves his parishoners (sp?) and is on 24-hour call to help whenever his help is needed. He lives a single, pure, celibate life because he believes it will help him serve his parish. He basically has devoted his whole life to God and his parish. One year, for whatever reason, the church runs out of money and is forced to shut its doors. The parishoners leave to other cities or nearby churches. The priest is struck - all he had and worked for is gone. He figures since God put him on Earth to serve in this church, that with the closing of the church, his life has no meaning. The ending is obvious... So, does he go to Hell? The priest, who wanted nothing but to serve God through his parish, makes a final fatal error in the eyes of some. Hmmm. As for Ted Bundy, I couldn't honestly say his repentence was genuine. But if it was, yes (curse me now) he ought to have a place in Heaven. cool board. ed From alarm@yabbs Mon Aug 1 20:01:32 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: re: When good things happen.... Date: Mon Aug 1 20:01:32 1994 Your right, I was thinking of classical Christian type answers, not Greek. Oops, I suppose some will consider gnosticism a Christian phenomena. I suppose loosely, mostly I think of it as a perversion of the Gospel and the Church never accepted it. But you could argue that it did have an influence on some orthodox thinkers. alarm-ing aren't I. From Pele@yabbs Tue Aug 2 00:26:51 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Zbadba@yabbs Subject: re: good'n'evil'n'sundry stuff Date: Tue Aug 2 00:26:51 1994 In message good'n'evil'n'sundry stuff, Zbadba said: > "doing something out of malice is evil" - evil = malice. What is malice? Malice? Look it up. But if you want my humble opinion. I was the one who said that evil is doing something "BAD" (the oporative word here and please don't ask me what bad is because I said that that differs from person to person) with malicious intents. Ok. So what does Malice mean? I means that the intent was to hurt or damage the individual or individual's or things that you did the bad thing to. This is separated from non-malicious intents by the fact that people accidentally do harm to others. Example for clarity: A) A driver accidentally hits an old man crossing the street. Not evil. B) A driver swerves onto the sidewalk for the sole purpose of hitting an old man waiting to cross the street. EVIL! Now if this is a question of semantics..you've come to the wrong man. -Pele- From Pele@yabbs Tue Aug 2 00:35:57 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Hrothgar@yabbs Subject: re: Ted Bundy Date: Tue Aug 2 00:35:57 1994 I don't know who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. No one does. So whoever's friend who offed himself has probably just a good a chance at getting into heaven as I do,or you do or anyone for that matter does. The fact is..according to the Bible, only 144,000 will actually go to Heaven. We have a misconception about the afterlife. A lot of people think of Heaven and Hell and no inbetween. I can't ever recally coming across the word "Hell" in the Bible. (If anyone finds it please let me know and give me the verses so I can educate myself.) My personaly opinion is that just as God sentence Lucifer to earth as punishment for his attempted coup. Mankind is senteced to earth for "original sin." I think that earth will be reborn fresh and new, like Eden in the beginning and those who followed the laws of God will live eternally there and a chosen few, 144,000, according to Revalations, will go to Heaven with God. I don't believe in an eternal torture chamber of fire and brimstone. -Pele- From Natalie@yabbs Tue Aug 2 01:13:17 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: re: When good things happen.... Date: Tue Aug 2 01:13:17 1994 ie, the goal of the gnostic is to attain gnosis and escape this lesser world... i really like the way in the secret book of john that there's a listing of all the angels...that's my favorite gnostic scripture...it's gotthe creation story in it too... natalie From Natalie@yabbs Tue Aug 2 01:16:50 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: When good things happen.... Date: Tue Aug 2 01:16:50 1994 gnosticism was a pre christian and christian sect that was wiped out by the orthodox church by the 400's. therefore, it is NOT a perversion of the gospel, because it's teachings existed before christianity did. i think that there is a lot to be learned from christianity, but if i had to choose between christianity and gnosticism, i'd pick gnosticism every time. it makes a helluva lot more sense to me. natalie who likes the gnostic notion that the christian god is quite frothing mad...cause if he's the only god, who is there to be jealous of? (ie, why shall men make no graven images if He's the only God? that passage suggests the existence of other Gods...) From sienna@yabbs Tue Aug 2 03:59:21 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: When good things happen.... Date: Tue Aug 2 03:59:21 1994 I was brought up to believe that God is all powerful, and a God of Love and Mercy. I have often wondered why He lets so many bad things happen to so many people....anyone who knows me knows my life has been filled with so many bad things....and I have cried out to Him in the middle of night when I have awoken for the 100th time drenched in sweat, running from a nightmare I can never escape...I have cried out "Why?" over and over again while tears streamed down my face as one more person I loved and trusted walked out of my life...and I say to Him "God, I am a good person! I have a good heart! I try to be helpful to those around me. I try to love and not judge. I believe you love me, but I need You to explain why You keep letting things happen to me....Please, please, God, please...." And as I have lain there, alone in my bed, feeling the fear of being alone, the sting of rejection and abandonment, the darkness of depression and the oppressiveness of nightmares, I was given one, clear thought.... First of all, God is all powerful, all knowing, and He is with us all of the time. BUT, when God created us, He gave us a free will. God is a God of Love not a God of prisoners. He didn't make us to mindless lemmings who blindly mind the laws of god. God gave us a choice in what we do, and we fell. We are imperfect, made perfect through his Holy love. And when we follow Him as a result of a choice we made with our own free will, then that becomes a symbol of OUR love for HIM. That is what I cling to when the world seems to be crashing down on me. And believe me, it seems to be crashing down on me even as I type this. I hope that this helps someone out there...I hope I have made some kind of sense. *Keepin' the Faith* Dee From Natalie@yabbs Tue Aug 2 08:14:29 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: When good things happen.... Date: Tue Aug 2 08:14:29 1994 note: it's only been in the last 100 years that the christian god has become this all forgiving santa claus type figure. in renaissance and medieval times, he was on nasty bugger, sending forth plague, pestilence, and lots of other fun things. and now, we get this jesus loves you shit, and god does too. i can MAYBE buy the bit about jesus loving us, but god is one mad dude, if you read the old testament, he was always smiting ppl....what we need is for him to start doing that again....nail them telelvangelists, Lord, call them home...we don't want them no more... natalie From Patton@yabbs Tue Aug 2 09:30:34 1994 From: Patton@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Christian numbers Date: Tue Aug 2 09:30:34 1994 In school, I knew a guy who had a book of biblical interpretations that corresponded things from the Old Testament and the book of Revelations with current happenings that could signal the beginning of the Apocalypse. Example (the creation of the European Community and its common identity card signals the coming of the anti-christ and his placing the mark of the beast onto his slaves). Does anyone else have any others they could share? Just curious... -Patton Patton knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men... From Badger01@yabbs Tue Aug 2 12:36:29 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Ted Bundy Date: Tue Aug 2 12:36:29 1994 144,000? Well, there are 5 BILLION on the planbet now..and that many have died, just about...so out of ten billion, 144,000 get in, assuming that the entire human race died now? Boy, makes you take a second look at Taoism, doesn't it? Badger01 From Badger01@yabbs Tue Aug 2 12:37:55 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: Gnosis Date: Tue Aug 2 12:37:55 1994 Yeah, that's always what has attracted me to Gnostic thought, that you CAN achieve a kind of Salvation...The listing of the Angelic beings is incomplete in some versions...but they make great names for characters in fiction. Badger01 From alarm@yabbs Tue Aug 2 13:05:14 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: 144,000 Date: Tue Aug 2 13:05:14 1994 I think we need to look at the 144,000 bit again. The Bible does not say that, all told, only 144,000 people will get into heaven. It says that 144,000 Jews will be sealed of those who are living at the time of the end. That means than any number of people who are not Jewish at that time could get into heaven and any number of Jews or Gentiles could get into heaven before that time. Besides, numbers in the book of Revelation rarely represent a mathematical count. Apocalyptic writing uses many images, including numbers, to convey other things besides epistemologically verifiable events. sounding like an alarm From alarm@yabbs Tue Aug 2 13:09:36 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: When good things happen.... Date: Tue Aug 2 13:09:36 1994 Dee, I think free will is a good choice to make. ;) alarm who has been forced to make a choice at one time. From Natalie@yabbs Tue Aug 2 13:38:43 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: 144,000 Date: Tue Aug 2 13:38:43 1994 if you're really into numerology and kabbalah and things like that, read 'foucault's pendulum' (umberto eco). it does some cool things with numbers, changing them into things that you may not have seen before. natalie From Hrothgar@yabbs Tue Aug 2 15:33:01 1994 From: Hrothgar@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: re: 144,000 Date: Tue Aug 2 15:33:01 1994 I could reasonably agree with (was it) Pele's view on the actual number of "heaven dwellers" being 144000. I'm no Bible Scholar, but this could be just the count of angels and archangels. This does not mean the rest of us will burn for eternity in the realms of Satan. Page through Dante's Inferno if you'd like. Since Dante claims that no one is sin-free, we all have our shortcomings, which determines our future path. Note that several places, though not heaven, are not unpleasant by any means, in fact one, the moral pagans' hangout, is very pleasant, one just doesn't see the face of God, as it were. Keep in mind this was written during a Fire-and-Brimstone era of Christianity, so the layout may be a bit severe, but I could definitely visualize a "layered" sort of afterlife. God knows _I_ have given in to temptation DOZENS of times - I don't feel like one of the worthy 144-grand. On the other hand I don't think my destiny is Hell, either. Don't take this viewpoint as my absolute belief - just food for thought... Ed From Zbadba@yabbs Tue Aug 2 21:53:50 1994 From: Zbadba@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: good'n'evil'n'sundry stuff Date: Tue Aug 2 21:53:50 1994 Your logic is recursive. Evil = Malice = Bad = Evil. What is "hurt"? In your example, from a different perspective, you may have "helped" the old man and his family- no costly doctor's bills, no slow and painful death, no chronic diseases. You've just removed a drain on the resources of the old man's family and society in general. The old man will never again feel physical pain (excluding any sort of afterlife you may believe in). Why is this "evil?" From Badger01@yabbs Wed Aug 3 13:21:47 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: God and me Date: Wed Aug 3 13:21:47 1994 I was trying, last night, as a kind of intellectual exercise, to disbelieve in God...and I couldn't do it. The Catholic is strong in me, and he fights and attempts to maintain himself...the furthest I can get is adopting Gnostic christianity...and even that isn't disbelieving in God at all, merely an alternative way to believe in him. Is it my upbringing, a natural spirituality I can't kill in me, a hunger for something more? I can't say. Badger01 From Hash@yabbs Thu Aug 4 13:00:56 1994 From: Hash@yabbs To: pixy@yabbs Subject: re: whoopteedoo Date: Thu Aug 4 13:00:56 1994 funny thing...my parents, although they attend a unitarian-universalist church, have pretty much given me complete religious freedom. or atleast, they told me i had such freedom. when i came home reading the tao te ching and several buddhist sutras, however, they felt threatened. called it "far-eastern religious bunk." guess that tells you how open-minded they really were... hash From Hash@yabbs Thu Aug 4 13:02:05 1994 From: Hash@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: re: whoopteedoo Date: Thu Aug 4 13:02:05 1994 i guess that last message was really intended for subvertus...sorry for the confusion. -hash From Wraith@yabbs Thu Aug 4 14:00:07 1994 From: Wraith@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: hmm Date: Thu Aug 4 14:00:07 1994 Regardless of various intreprations over the years, the common thread throughout the Bible is love and redemption, especially in the O.T. i.e. The first promise made to man after the Fall, was a promise of foress.. The last promise is that of eternal life and communion with a just, loving God. From Wraith@yabbs Thu Aug 4 14:01:11 1994 From: Wraith@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: hmm Date: Thu Aug 4 14:01:11 1994 forgiveness even From sienna@yabbs Thu Aug 4 14:37:24 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Religion Date: Thu Aug 4 14:37:24 1994 Any thoughts on prayer in the schools? I feel that the State should not have any say in this matter...it should be an individual choice on the part of students, not the government....any thoughts on this issue? Dee From Hrothgar@yabbs Thu Aug 4 15:20:43 1994 From: Hrothgar@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: prayer in school Date: Thu Aug 4 15:20:43 1994 My feeling, as a firm believer in separation of Church and state, is that prayer should not be suppressed, yet no time (like for example a five-minute period of silence in the morning for personal practice) should be allotted for the church in schools. That includes of course, other state-run institutions. This is less a moral debate and more a government intervention. While I feel anyone should feel free to pray in school, at work, etc, they can do it on their own time. Pledge to the flag, however, IS not only a right of the State but IMHO a responsibility to the people in that institution, again in school, Congress, the Post Office, wherever. If you want to work for the state, you should be willing to pledge your allegiance to the very symbol you work under. Otherwise you oughtn't work there. (of course that's opening up a whole different can o' worms) Similarly, at a church run school (catholic prep school OR a church-supported college) prayer ought to be allotted, or at least that right be given the school. Since the church is supporting the institution, it ought receive reverence from the people attending the school. Well, there ya have it... Hroth From alarm@yabbs Thu Aug 4 16:44:06 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: Religion Date: Thu Aug 4 16:44:06 1994 Prayer in school is ok by me. If... you want to pray before a test, etc. you want to pray before you give your commencement speech. you start your football game. But not... when the school (read government) says it's time to pray. when the school says you can't start the game unless you pray. As an individual matter the government should not regulate it either way. Terry From Badger01@yabbs Thu Aug 4 17:50:24 1994 From: Badger01@yabbs To: Hrothgar@yabbs Subject: re: prayer in school Date: Thu Aug 4 17:50:24 1994 It may be the Employees Duty to pledge allegiance, but why should a five year oldf be forced to recite a loyalty oath? Especially when they aren't old enough to trully understand what it is they are pledging allegiance to, or why that is an important thing in your life? The only time that kind of pledge is meaningful is when itis meant. Badger01 From Pele@yabbs Thu Aug 4 22:35:11 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: re: Ted Bundy Date: Thu Aug 4 22:35:11 1994 144,000 get in but that doesn't mean that the rest are doomed to suffer in hell. Like I have said before. I don't believe in hell. The word is never used in the bible and only on the day of judgement is the concept introdueced via fire and brimstone and weeping and nashing of teeth. What I'm trying to say is that even though only 144,000 people will actually go to heaven, according to revalations, the rest of the people will remain here on earth in (this is my belief, btw) a garden of Eden-type place. Now that, to me is something that we all can look forward to. -Pele- P.S. I think heaven is overrated. From Pele@yabbs Thu Aug 4 22:38:32 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: 144,000 Date: Thu Aug 4 22:38:32 1994 I've often thought the same as you have. And that particular passage is subject to much interpretation. But in either respect, whether it is 144,000 Jews or some other number, the idea is that only a limited number of people will actually go to heaven. I think that we should not strive to go to heaven but to seek god and live our lives according to his will. If we do this, and I am wrong and there is a hell I will guarantee anyone that they wont end up there. -Pele From Pele@yabbs Thu Aug 4 22:43:39 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Zbadba@yabbs Subject: re: good'n'evil'n'sundry stuff Date: Thu Aug 4 22:43:39 1994 In message re: good'n'evil'n'sundry stuff, Zbadba said: > Your logic is recursive. Evil = Malice = Bad = Evil. What is "hurt"? > > In your example, from a different perspective, you may have "helped" the > old man and his family- no costly doctor's bills, no slow and painful > death, no chronic diseases. You've just removed a drain on the resources > of the old man's family and society in general. The old man will never > again feel physical pain (excluding any sort of afterlife you may believe > in). Why is this "evil?" We are talking about good and evil. This is a human issue not an issue of logic. Of course my logic will be faulty. I wasn't using any! I was trying to let you see the HUMAN side of the issue. I feel like I'm talking to Spock or Data! I wish you luck man, 'cause if you don't think that killing a innocent old man for the sake of killing him is evil then you worry me. And if this is the kind of people we have living in the U.S. it's no wonder we have Charles Mansons out there. -Pele From pixy@yabbs Thu Aug 4 23:48:54 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: Badger01@yabbs Subject: re: prayer in school Date: Thu Aug 4 23:48:54 1994 In message re: prayer in school, Badger01 said: > It may be the Employees Duty to pledge allegiance, but why should a five > year oldf be forced to recite a loyalty oath? > Especially when they aren't old enough to trully understand what it is > they are pledging allegiance to, or why that is an important thing in your > life? > The only time that kind of pledge is meaningful is when itis meant. I don't really even know if it's meaningful when ones does mean it. I think having to recite an oath in order to understand and value freedom shows a lack of real, genuine living. Having to make any kind of ritualistic oath reveals weakness of one's character. pixy From Hrothgar@yabbs Fri Aug 5 00:16:49 1994 From: Hrothgar@yabbs To: pixy@yabbs Subject: re: prayer in school Date: Fri Aug 5 00:16:49 1994 weakness? lack of living? what are we here for? do we love our country? do we love what principles our country stands on? don't we value our national roots? I don't know about you all, but I stand proudly for the Allegiance, Star Spangled Banner, and still get a tear in my eye for "God Bless the USA." If we cannot appreciate our meaning, it ought to be taught in school early on. Tell these kids why we pledge allegiance, what it means to belong to the USA, and why we ought to be proud to live where we do, with the guaranteed rights we have. (like I said, I knew we were opening up a can of worms here!) now about that prayer in school thing... From sienna@yabbs Fri Aug 5 02:51:25 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: good'n'evil'n'sundry stuff Date: Fri Aug 5 02:51:25 1994 Couldn't have said it better myself B.! *hug* Dee From Typhon@yabbs Fri Aug 5 09:58:22 1994 From: Typhon@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: Heave is overrated Date: Fri Aug 5 09:58:22 1994 You can't bring me down. :) Seriously...Have you checked all this with the religous hierarchy? They'd doubtless disagree...Not that you should care. Typhon the Usurper From DrgnLady@yabbs Fri Aug 5 10:27:07 1994 From: DrgnLady@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: first post Date: Fri Aug 5 10:27:07 1994 isnt the Book of Revelation a misnomer? i thought the word reveal meant to make known.....which Revelation doesnt do at all! scott peck, author of "The Road Less Traveled," gave the best definition love that i've ever read: The will to extend one's self for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth. of course that definition would only meaan something if you believed you had a spirit. From Hash@yabbs Fri Aug 5 12:36:50 1994 From: Hash@yabbs To: Zbadba@yabbs Subject: re: for the record Date: Fri Aug 5 12:36:50 1994 good for you!!! (there's that word again...inescapable, i guess) the frightning part is, whoever finally defines the words had a whole lot of power. we've seen this from the religious right and a few other groups. lets not define them. or if we have to, define them for ourselves and no one else From alarm@yabbs Fri Aug 5 12:37:01 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: 144,000 Date: Fri Aug 5 12:37:01 1994 This probably won't do a bit of good, but look at Revelation 7:1-8. This is talking about 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe. But the interesting thing is that in verse 9, after counting all those Jews, John says "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. . . ." They sound like they are in heaven to me and it sounds like there are more than Jews there, and it sounds like it must me much more than 144,000; if he could count that high, but couldn't count the rest of the multitude. look at the test, look at the text. the alarm is ringing From alarm@yabbs Fri Aug 5 12:44:05 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: Typhon@yabbs Subject: re: Heave is overrated Date: Fri Aug 5 12:44:05 1994 You asked Pele, >Have you checked all this with the religous hierarchy? >They'd doubtless disagree... Not necessarily. If Pele is a Jehovah's Witness the religious hierarchy is that which taught him these limitations on the number who get to heaven. But as far as I know they are the only ones who accept this interpretation. alarm, who, btw, is a Baptist minister and aspiring theologian. He also hawks newspapers on the corner in the mornings :) From Hash@yabbs Fri Aug 5 17:32:59 1994 From: Hash@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: re: prayer in school Date: Fri Aug 5 17:32:59 1994 along a different note...anyone here realize that the phrase "under god' in the pledge was added around the 50's when mccarthyism was sweeping the nation? it was a measure to (somehow) prevent communists from entering our government as they were atheists and therefore couldnt say the pledge. the logic is infalliable, of course. now, why do so many people have ovjections to taking those two little words out? bewildered, hash From Natalie@yabbs Fri Aug 5 22:22:36 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: DrgnLady@yabbs Subject: re: first post Date: Fri Aug 5 22:22:36 1994 the best definiton of love i've ever read is this: "love does not consist in gazing at each other but in looking outward in the same direction" antoine de st. exupery it goes something like that, it's been years since i've read le petit prince natalie From Natalie@yabbs Fri Aug 5 22:24:53 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: Heave is overrated Date: Fri Aug 5 22:24:53 1994 something i never understood about jehovah's witnesses (and perhaps someone could clear this up for me) is why don'tthey celebrate any holiday other than the death of jesus? this is what i've been told anyhow...and i remember a girl who was a jehovah's witness in my jr high never getting to go to any pep assemblies and she didn't have to say the pledge, while the rest of us were forced to...of course, i stopped saying it in high school...oh, everyone hated me for that one... natalie From Pele@yabbs Sat Aug 6 01:57:29 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Typhon@yabbs Subject: re: Heave is overrated Date: Sat Aug 6 01:57:29 1994 In message Heave is overrated, Typhon said: > Seriously...Have you checked all this with the religous hierarchy? They'd > doubtless disagree...Not that you should care. You're absolutely right they disagree and you're absolutely right I don't care. I never claimed to agree with the Catholic church or any church for that matter. I don't represent any particular denomination of Christianity. Throughout my life I have searched for the answers to the meaning of life. I may not have the right answers and I'm not sure that anyone does. But the answers I have found are ones that give me comfort in this life. I feel assured that I can die at any time. I am a good person. I'm not holy, mind you but I'm a good person. Like any human, I sin and I believe that God knows that I sin and will sin. I like to believe that God is more concerned with my intents that with my actions. Woops...started babbling again and off the subject. My basic thing? I believe that heaven is a place for those "holy people" and the rest is for people like me. -pele- From Pele@yabbs Sat Aug 6 02:02:30 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: 144,000 Date: Sat Aug 6 02:02:30 1994 In message re: 144,000, alarm said: > This probably won't do a bit of good, but look at Revelation 7:1-8. Actually, friend it did a lot of good. Thanx. Don't ever think that reeducating me or making me look at something from a different point of view won't stop to make me think. I'm not sure if all those people are going to heaven or not but I sure won't discount that possiblity. And if heaven is the way I hope it is (someplace where I feel at peace for a change) then I sure hope that I'm amoung the people who end up there! Like I said. Thank you :) -Pele- From Pele@yabbs Sat Aug 6 02:05:05 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: For the Record Date: Sat Aug 6 02:05:05 1994 I do not subscribe to any particular denomination. I am not a Jehovah's Witness. I read the Bible and subject it to my own interpretations. Right or wrong. If someone has a different opinion to mine and I hear it and I agree with it, then I can reevaluate my beliefs. That's it. -Pele- From sienna@yabbs Sat Aug 6 03:23:51 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: first post Date: Sat Aug 6 03:23:51 1994 I love Antoine...(see my plan file)... Fave quote by him is "It is only with the heart that one may see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye..." Awesome awesome awesome! BTW: I had a nice trip, thanks go out to all those who wished me well. I am back home now...*sob* The ocean was wonderful... *hugs* dee From alarm@yabbs Sat Aug 6 08:43:49 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: For the Record Date: Sat Aug 6 08:43:49 1994 Pele, I really didn't mean to call you a Jehovah's Witness, it is just that your particular view of the 144,000 was like thier view, that's all I was saying. I'm glad that you are out there reading the word for yourself. Also, the reason I said that I thought my comment earlier would not do any good was because I don't think arguing is a way of convincing anyone anything, and I felt like my comment was leading in that direction. good providence to you, alarm From alarm@yabbs Sat Aug 6 08:51:54 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: Heave is overrated Date: Sat Aug 6 08:51:54 1994 Actually I'm not sure why the JW's don't celebrate anything, I'm not an expert on their religion. But I think that it has to do with their view on separation. They do not participate in state sanctioned events like holidays (any of them), they do not join the military, etc. They do not say the pledge because it is, in their interp. (again I think, not know) forbidden by Jesus when he said not to swear an oath. They are actually very legalistic in thier religious convictions. Jesus said, I have come to set you free. Again, the scriptures say, If the son sets you free you are free indeed. Freedom in Christ is a big deal to the apostle Paul. alarm From balistic@yabbs Sat Aug 6 15:13:09 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Ted Bundy Date: Sat Aug 6 15:13:09 1994 heaven is a video arcade :) From Pele@yabbs Sat Aug 6 21:29:01 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: natalie@yabbs Subject: why JW's don't celebrate Date: Sat Aug 6 21:29:01 1994 Another reason, I think, has to do with Jesus saying that we should not celebrate his birth but his death. From Phreddie@yabbs Mon Aug 8 02:48:07 1994 From: Phreddie@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: More Winds of Change Date: Mon Aug 8 02:48:07 1994 hehe.. I agree copmletely.. the Bible doesn't cover everything .. I mean seriously, that would imply that someone who was born infertile is a sinner because of his/her inaiblity to reproduce.. Well, I just say believe in what you want, and if someone comes in and knocks you for what you think, then politely tell them to insert a long adn pointed wooden stick into their nether regions and to stab repeatedly.. From Phreddie@yabbs Mon Aug 8 02:51:41 1994 From: Phreddie@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: Ted Bundy Date: Mon Aug 8 02:51:41 1994 So basically you're saying that out of the billions and trillions even of people that have existed on this earth, only 144,000 select elite few will make it to Heaven? that sounds like it sucks.. From sienna@yabbs Mon Aug 8 04:33:46 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Phreddie@yabbs Subject: re: More Winds of Change Date: Mon Aug 8 04:33:46 1994 Thanks for commenting....I agree completely! hehehe...... Dee From Hrothgar@yabbs Mon Aug 8 11:36:07 1994 From: Hrothgar@yabbs To: balistic@yabbs Subject: Arcadia? Date: Mon Aug 8 11:36:07 1994 In message re: Ted Bundy balistic wrote: >heaven is a video arcade :) hey, balistic, can I borrow a quarter? H From balistic@yabbs Mon Aug 8 16:03:53 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: life Date: Mon Aug 8 16:03:53 1994 Life suxs, then you die, then the afterlife sucks, then you die, then the after afterlife sux, etc... :) From balistic@yabbs Mon Aug 8 16:04:42 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: Hrothgar@yabbs Subject: re: Arcadia? Date: Mon Aug 8 16:04:42 1994 hehheh...I'll trade ya 3 for a dollar :) From Hrothgar@yabbs Mon Aug 8 17:35:24 1994 From: Hrothgar@yabbs To: balistic@yabbs Subject: Arcadia Date: Mon Aug 8 17:35:24 1994 sure thing, balistic... *hands balistic 3 quarters and grabs a dollar from his wallet* From pixy@yabbs Tue Aug 9 02:19:24 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: Hrothgar@yabbs Subject: re: prayer in school Date: Tue Aug 9 02:19:24 1994 In message re: prayer in school, Hrothgar said: > weakness? lack of living? what are we here for? do we love our country? > do we love what principles our country stands on? don't we value our > national roots? I don't know about you all, but I stand proudly for the > Allegiance, Star Spangled Banner, and still get a tear in my eye for "God > Bless the USA." If we cannot appreciate our meaning, it ought to be > taught in school early on. Tell these kids why we pledge allegiance, what > it means to belong to the USA, and why we ought to be proud to live where > we do, with the guaranteed rights we have. > (like I said, I knew we were opening up a can of worms here!) > now about that prayer in school thing... (Pixy returns from vomiting in order to reply) Is this for real? I'll assume it is for entertainment purposes. I'll tell you what we're here for, and it sure isn't Betsy Ross's sewing. The overwhelming majoriyt of us are here because that's where we were born--that's boring. Let's think about why immigrants are here instead. 1. More freedom 2. Escaping another government 3. Other stuff I don't care to list. No where on my list is: we have a nice flag or wee have a cool pledge. Who needs it. My point--you obviously missed it--is simple: you shouldn't need a flag or a pledge in order to value freedom. And I'll walk out of Waffle House if someone plays "God Bless the USA". Now for some of those irrelevant worms you got into... You mentioned the values that America was founded on. Let me address that by saying you forgot to mention that those values were greed and racism and speculation. If you don't believe me, ask some Indians, blacks, irish, and chinese among others. And you also mentioned something about the freedoms we have as americans at the end of your post. Well, if you'd quit your flag-worship, you might notice how quickly our freedoms are getting sucked up by the government. The 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th are all suffering severe attacks from the government and the people of america. Screw the flag and the pledge, I want people to respect the constitution. And don't get me started on school prayer, pal. pixy From Natalie@yabbs Tue Aug 9 03:10:09 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: pixy@yabbs Subject: re: prayer in school Date: Tue Aug 9 03:10:09 1994 very well said pixy...i couldn't have said it better myself... hey, since i'm irish american, does that mean i'm oppressed? *smirk* natalie From kke@yabbs Tue Aug 9 03:58:15 1994 From: kke@yabbs To: balistic@yabbs Subject: re: Ted Bundy Date: Tue Aug 9 03:58:15 1994 > heaven is a video arcade :) "heaven is a truck, it got stuck on a freeway" Killer Keebler Elf Belch if you're sober From sienna@yabbs Tue Aug 9 11:19:21 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: prayer in school Date: Tue Aug 9 11:19:21 1994 Hey Nat-bug! I am Irish-American too hehehehe We BOTH are potato farmer wanna-be's........NOT! *hug* Dee From balistic@yabbs Tue Aug 9 15:15:16 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: Hrothgar@yabbs Subject: re: Arcadia Date: Tue Aug 9 15:15:16 1994 ballistic performs a decapitation fatality on hrothgar :) From balistic@yabbs Tue Aug 9 15:17:00 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: prayer in school Date: Tue Aug 9 15:17:00 1994 "your own, personal, Jesus, some one to be oppressed..." From balistic@yabbs Tue Aug 9 15:18:01 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: kke@yabbs Subject: re: Ted Bundy Date: Tue Aug 9 15:18:01 1994 hmmmmmmmmm a truck full of video games....yeah I'd go for that :) From sienna@yabbs Tue Aug 9 16:59:51 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: balistic@yabbs Subject: re: prayer in school Date: Tue Aug 9 16:59:51 1994 Good tune, and I can dance to it...I give it a 7.....hehehe From Hrothgar@yabbs Tue Aug 9 18:56:01 1994 From: Hrothgar@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: re: prayer in school Date: Tue Aug 9 18:56:01 1994 ok ok ok, maybe my thoughts are a bit nationalistic and idealistic, but, as a military guy, I take those things very seriously and very personally. No, I don't think saluting the flag (or pledging ineveryone else's case) is just revering a bunch of cloth. Relating this to religious issues, it's kinda like trans-substantiaition, for all you Catholics out there. Once a flag is made, it's no longer just a colored cloth, it symbolizes America. And yes, some of you don't have the highest views on why most of us are here and the values this country was based on, but face it - this country is a bastion of hope for the entire world. People save money their entire lives, not to come here, but just to send ONE child here, so that maybe he or she can have a better life than they. That's not some idealistic propaganda I whipped up in my sleep one night, that's the way it is, and has been for over two centuries. Before you all continue to bash me and the country I have pledged to die for, think about what this country means to you, and if you feel this country, and everything that symbolizes America and it's freedom (the flag, Statue of Liberty, even a baseball or a dollar bill), does not represent the most free, democratic, and well-governed nation in the world, then spend your life saving money so that YOUR child can live somewhere that's better. Thank you, I will step down from my soap box and speak no more... Hroth From dmonger@yabbs Tue Aug 9 19:54:58 1994 From: dmonger@yabbs To: Hrothgar@yabbs Subject: re: prayer in school Date: Tue Aug 9 19:54:58 1994 love it or leave it ... blah i think its nice that you want to serve the country and that you are willing to protect it. congratulations. but the argument that if i don't think this is the best country i should live in that i should get out is pure bullshit ... if you think that's what this country is about maybe you should go find another one. -peter From Zbadba@yabbs Tue Aug 9 23:28:16 1994 From: Zbadba@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: more stuff. Date: Tue Aug 9 23:28:16 1994 Pele: Call me sick. ok. I don't personally believe you know what it is to be insane. There's nothing "bad" about it. It's just seeing the world from a different perspective - a perspective you are taught not to accept. Hrothgar: much as I disagree with you, I respect your attitude re. the flag, pledge, et al. However, I think there is a glaring contradiction in your stand towards requiring things like the pledge, respect for the flag, etc. - the constitution was written in part to protect the US from slipping into gross nationalism. When you start requiring things like the pledge of alleigance in schools, etc. you take a big step towards dismantling the very things the flag and the pledge represent: liberty and justice for all (even those who disagree). From 8charact@yabbs Tue Aug 9 23:30:39 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: studies... Date: Tue Aug 9 23:30:39 1994 Natalie, Sounds interesting.... I did my graduate studies at the University of Toronto and spent a good amount of time studying Early Christianity. I'm a bit rusty on the subject NOW. I've been teaching HS religion which doesn't deal much with these areas. 8charact From 8charact@yabbs Tue Aug 9 23:34:17 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: encounter/reply Date: Tue Aug 9 23:34:17 1994 Natalie, I never meant to say/imply that was correct!?? (about someone saying that....if you don't go to church you'll go to hell) Seems we got our connections crossed!? 8charact From 8charact@yabbs Tue Aug 9 23:38:17 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: When good things happen.... Date: Tue Aug 9 23:38:17 1994 Dee, I've always found that book to be the best on the subject. Did you take your computer on-line name from Catherine of Sienna? 8charact From 8charact@yabbs Tue Aug 9 23:43:49 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: Church continued..... Date: Tue Aug 9 23:43:49 1994 Alarm, Church=all people who are believers, together HOLY. Members=all individuals who on occassion sin but do not make the whole Church sinful... 8charact From 8charact@yabbs Tue Aug 9 23:47:32 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: When good....continued Date: Tue Aug 9 23:47:32 1994 alarm, I think if you reread the book, you'll find that God is not portrayed as weak and that the author is trying to create a vision of God that takes him/her out of the classical image. 8charact From 8charact@yabbs Tue Aug 9 23:53:42 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: when good things...diddo Date: Tue Aug 9 23:53:42 1994 Dee, I liked what you wrote to 'alarm'. Good points. :-) 8charact From 8charact@yabbs Tue Aug 9 23:55:57 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: 144,000 Date: Tue Aug 9 23:55:57 1994 alarm, Good point about 144,000. 8charact From Pele@yabbs Wed Aug 10 00:21:22 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Zbadba@yabbs Subject: insanity Date: Wed Aug 10 00:21:22 1994 Insanity does not preclude evil. From pixy@yabbs Wed Aug 10 01:17:38 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: prayer in school Date: Wed Aug 10 01:17:38 1994 In message re: prayer in school, Natalie said: > hey, since i'm irish american, does that mean i'm oppressed? No, Gone With The Wind was the last documented evidence of Irish oppression in the 20th century. I'm happy to say, on behalf of Hibernian descendants everywhere, that we are now "mainstream". pixy From pixy@yabbs Wed Aug 10 01:25:39 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: Hrothgar@yabbs Subject: re: prayer in school Date: Wed Aug 10 01:25:39 1994 Call me a perfectionist, but I'd still like to change a large number of things. And the old "Love it or leave it mentality" is one of the most undemocratic one's around--I cringe every time a "patriotic" person uses it. Who ever thought that any participant in a democratic form of government would espouse such a mentality? pixy From sienna@yabbs Wed Aug 10 08:38:34 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Hrothgar@yabbs Subject: re: prayer in school Date: Wed Aug 10 08:38:34 1994 *hug* Dee From sienna@yabbs Wed Aug 10 08:41:04 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: 8charact@yabbs Subject: re: When good things happen.... Date: Wed Aug 10 08:41:04 1994 No, Sienna has a personal meaning for me, and another reason I chose it is that it is a city in Italy....besides I thought it was beautiful...although from time to time I get asked if I am black because the name means burnt brown....sadly, I am Irish therefore have barely any pigmentation....*sigh* Dee From sienna@yabbs Wed Aug 10 08:41:59 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: insanity Date: Wed Aug 10 08:41:59 1994 I'm insane.....does that mean I am evil? ;) Dee From dmonger@yabbs Wed Aug 10 10:07:20 1994 From: dmonger@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: When good things happen.... Date: Wed Aug 10 10:07:20 1994 yeah, i'm irish too ... and hungarian makes for an interesting combination of skin colors when i get tan :) -peter who thinks he'd look funny if he had red hair and freckles to go with his tan From dmonger@yabbs Wed Aug 10 10:07:45 1994 From: dmonger@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: insanity Date: Wed Aug 10 10:07:45 1994 if it does then Nat and I are in rillie big trouble -peter From balistic@yabbs Wed Aug 10 13:36:23 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: :) Date: Wed Aug 10 13:36:23 1994 From balistic@yabbs Wed Aug 10 13:40:19 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: re:the east Date: Wed Aug 10 13:40:19 1994 Anyone here ever read the Tao? Not really a religeous book as it is a guide to life....It makes some good observations.....Although it's not always translated that well :) balistic s From balistic@yabbs Wed Aug 10 13:44:00 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: insanity Date: Wed Aug 10 13:44:00 1994 No...just means you're fun to be around :) From sienna@yabbs Wed Aug 10 16:21:08 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: balistic@yabbs Subject: re: insanity Date: Wed Aug 10 16:21:08 1994 There are those who would argue with you that I am NOT fun to be around...but hey, I think I am quite fun (I even talk to myself!) ;) Dee======> a sarcastic yet loveable warm fuzzie :) From Deluge@yabbs Wed Aug 10 17:27:58 1994 From: Deluge@yabbs To: balistic@yabbs Subject: re: re:the east Date: Wed Aug 10 17:27:58 1994 If you want a really good book on Tao to read try Taoism: the road to immortality...very good! From Natalie@yabbs Wed Aug 10 20:24:32 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: dmonger@yabbs Subject: re: insanity Date: Wed Aug 10 20:24:32 1994 uh huh. we are frothing mad, you know. how's ferdinand and luthor doing, peter? my voices seem to be coming back a bit, i'm usre they'll beback in full force once school starts...hopefully they won'ttell me to kill anyone this year...that's the only thing i'm really scared of, that they'll want me to kill my roommate...cause i LIKE my roomate, darn it... natalie From balistic@yabbs Wed Aug 10 20:58:47 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: insanity Date: Wed Aug 10 20:58:47 1994 oohhhh...fuzzies are neat.......oops...gotta go put tapioca in the toilet and let fluffy go fer a swim....I'm not insane....really.......I didn't have my hamster in the blender, honest....he LIKES to sleep there... :-) balistic From balistic@yabbs Wed Aug 10 20:59:11 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: Deluge@yabbs Subject: re: re:the east Date: Wed Aug 10 20:59:11 1994 I'll try it From sienna@yabbs Wed Aug 10 20:59:17 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Peck Date: Wed Aug 10 20:59:17 1994 Has anyone read "The Road Less Travelled?" Just wondering.... Dee From Hrothgar@yabbs Wed Aug 10 21:38:24 1994 From: Hrothgar@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: Peck Date: Wed Aug 10 21:38:24 1994 yuppers, sure have. have you read the other books by him? there's a whole series. Hrothgar From Pele@yabbs Wed Aug 10 22:33:29 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: insanity Date: Wed Aug 10 22:33:29 1994 In message re: insanity, sienna said: > I'm insane.....does that mean I am evil? Of course not! :) You're just strange. :) *Hugs* *hugfromzippo* -Brian From Typhon@yabbs Thu Aug 11 13:02:37 1994 From: Typhon@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Observations Date: Thu Aug 11 13:02:37 1994 As someone who IS insane, and evil, and who has read several versions of the Tao, here are my observations: Insanity is a very difficult thing to judge...as it is mostly perceptual. The Greeks thought a belief in an immortal soul was insane. The Aztecs though that stopping the blood sacrifices woiuld being about the end of the world...therefore, the Conquistadors were insane. As a human being who has embraced his evil, I say that it isn't so bad. Just control it, and only allow what Nietzche called "Tigereish lust for cruelty" to get out at your enemies, whoever they may be. Choose them well, BTW. You are defined by who you love, and who you hate. The Tao is onl;y truly held by not holding it..it unifies us, but the more I talk about it, the less I have it. Soi I'll stop now. Typhon the Usurper Not a religour post, but close. From sienna@yabbs Thu Aug 11 14:25:54 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Hrothgar@yabbs Subject: re: Peck Date: Thu Aug 11 14:25:54 1994 I started to read it but I couldnt concentrate on it....pretty chaotic time of my life...I suppose I should try to read it again. *sigh* Dee From sienna@yabbs Thu Aug 11 14:26:27 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: insanity Date: Thu Aug 11 14:26:27 1994 *hughughughughughughug* Tell Zippo his is coming *smirk* Dee From 8charact@yabbs Thu Aug 11 23:04:48 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: Sienna@yabbs Subject: Cont. with previous posting Date: Thu Aug 11 23:04:48 1994 Sienna, I lost your previous postings on this board! Dumb I guess?! We and others were discussing 'When Bad Things Happen...' Remember what you said before? 8charact From laelth@yabbs Fri Aug 12 01:12:38 1994 From: laelth@yabbs To: balistic@yabbs Subject: Eastern Religions Date: Fri Aug 12 01:12:38 1994 I've got several friends that are really into Eastern religions. I'm personally attracted to the teachings of Kung Fu Tse. Nevertheless, I'm skeptical of the Western desire to turn to the East for answers. The fact is that we are Western. We think in Western languages, and as hard as we may try on an individual level to become more "Eastern" this may be an almost impossible goal for us to attain, for invariably we will "Westernize" any Eastern religion that we encounter and pervert it's original meaning and value. This is a typical, and perhaps inevitable result of our Western need to colonize and conquer all that we encounter. In many ways, we can't help it. Ugly or not, it's who we are. Perhaps we would be happier if we tried harder to be content with who we are ... fully Western. Perhaps we should be looking within ourselves for answers, rather than looking outward to another culture. But, then again, we're Westerners, and looking outward is what we do best. That's what we are ... Paradoxically, -laelth From 8charact@yabbs Fri Aug 12 01:20:11 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: laelth@yabbs Subject: re: Eastern Religions Date: Fri Aug 12 01:20:11 1994 To Laelth I agree with you wholeheartedly. Can't become what you are not. We were brought up in a Western culture. How can we become Eastern?? Impossible. All we can do is to Westernize an Eastern religion thereby distorting it. 8charact From Xela@yabbs Fri Aug 12 03:30:44 1994 From: Xela@yabbs To: laelth@yabbs Subject: re: Eastern Religions Date: Fri Aug 12 03:30:44 1994 "..and perhaps inevitable result of our Western need to colonize and conquer all that we encounter..." Bullshit. The East has done its share of rape and pillage. As far as politics and the enslavement of people, Western and Eastern cultures share equal guilt. Stop romanticizing mysticism just because its mystic. X From BLynch@yabbs Fri Aug 12 04:37:21 1994 From: BLynch@yabbs To: balistic@yabbs Subject: re: re:the east Date: Fri Aug 12 04:37:21 1994 the tao isn't really a religous book as it is a guide to life. ok, let me just sit back for a couple of seconds there and think about that statement. you should too. later. From DrgnLady@yabbs Fri Aug 12 17:06:08 1994 From: DrgnLady@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: Peck Date: Fri Aug 12 17:06:08 1994 i have s From sienna@yabbs Fri Aug 12 17:09:12 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: DrgnLady@yabbs Subject: re: Peck Date: Fri Aug 12 17:09:12 1994 Gee that was..um...informative. Dee From sienna@yabbs Fri Aug 12 17:16:27 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: I'm leaving Date: Fri Aug 12 17:16:27 1994 Just a quick note to tell everyone that I am leaving for college on August 26...I am not sure if I will have interent access...so for those who did not see the posts I left in Social Misfits and Poetry, if you want to keep in touch email me either on here or at callahdm@ucunix.san.uc.edu and give me your address. School address for me is: Dee Callahan Ashland University Box 162 Ashland, Ohio 44805-3700 Be hearing from you all I hope! *Hug* Dee From balistic@yabbs Fri Aug 12 19:52:35 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: laelth@yabbs Subject: re: Eastern Religions Date: Fri Aug 12 19:52:35 1994 I'm not really a religeous guy (then what am I doing on this thread! :) ) but I feel that true faith comes from within, some times with some outside help. I was introduced to the Tao while studying shaolin kung-fu and I kind of got addicted to it. I'd read a page everyday, afterwards I'd sort of medidtate about that page and try to think how it might apply to me. To me the Tao is not a religeous book, it's more of a book of common sense. Being the scientific type it's hard for me to accept a religeon, Thus, again I look at the Tao. The Tao speaks nothing of the afterlife or the gods, so it is easier for me to reflrct on than, say, christianity. The eastern philosophy of Tao is my choice, and I feel comfortable with it. To me that's what a religeon should be. . . P.S. has anyone seen that ripoff of a network, TBN? Man what a scam. balistic From balistic@yabbs Fri Aug 12 19:54:43 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: BLynch@yabbs Subject: re: re:the east Date: Fri Aug 12 19:54:43 1994 Okay Okay...poor choice of words...check out my previous post later balistic From 8charact@yabbs Fri Aug 12 23:29:32 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: Xela@yabbs Subject: Mysticism Date: Fri Aug 12 23:29:32 1994 Xela, Mysticism is not just Eastern, it has a Western religious dimension. Its tradition is very rich and interesting. Itprovides a very unique view of Western Religious tradition. 8charact From 8charact@yabbs Fri Aug 12 23:34:13 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: Goodbye Date: Fri Aug 12 23:34:13 1994 Dee, Its been interesting talking with you on this message board. Hope school goes well and that the prof.'/courses are good! Peace! Dave (alias 8charact) From BLynch@yabbs Sat Aug 13 01:00:52 1994 From: BLynch@yabbs To: balistic@yabbs Subject: re: re:the east Date: Sat Aug 13 01:00:52 1994 i just read it, and i get your point, but just for the sake of argument (which i don't really want to do) the bible is "common sense" to some people (maybe too many). well, i've said my part. you may react as you wish. later. From sienna@yabbs Sat Aug 13 03:32:14 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: 8charact@yabbs Subject: re: Goodbye Date: Sat Aug 13 03:32:14 1994 Thanks...I expect it to be a blast! I have to take a religion course to fulfill my University requirements...I think it is called Exploring the Bible...outta be interesting *hugs* Dee From Natalie@yabbs Sat Aug 13 14:03:42 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: Goodbye Date: Sat Aug 13 14:03:42 1994 speaking of religion classes, i'm going to KILL someone at wmu...i signed up for intro to religion, right? i figured it'd be a nice hodge podge of everything...well, i was in kzoo the other day and i looked at the books for the calss, and it's all eastern and african religions...I AM PISSED...not that it's eastern and african religions, but for the fact that islam, judaism, and christianity aren't going to be represented in this class....granted, most ppl know about those religions, but it is an intro to RELIGION class, not and intro to non western religion or something like that....blah...just what i need, more multiculturalism shoved down my throat....as if the english department wasn't bad enough...luckily, the history dept. has yet to succumb the the blight known as PC... natalie From sienna@yabbs Sat Aug 13 20:32:35 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: Goodbye Date: Sat Aug 13 20:32:35 1994 I have no clue what my class is going to be like, but I'll be sure to keep you posted! *hug* Dee From balistic@yabbs Sat Aug 13 22:26:09 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: BLynch@yabbs Subject: re: re:the east Date: Sat Aug 13 22:26:09 1994 Like I said, a religeon should be whatever you feel comfortable with. later balistic From laelth@yabbs Sun Aug 14 00:15:38 1994 From: laelth@yabbs To: balistic@yabbs Subject: Science Date: Sun Aug 14 00:15:38 1994 Part of your difficulty accepting religion may stem from the fact that science, itself, IS a religion. Consider that it has its sacred texts, its priests, and its method (ritual). It's taught in the schools, like religion used to be. It's used as "proof" of reality, like Christians use the Bible as "proof." Science has every characteristic of a religion, and for a while it was the dominant religion of the Western world, as Nietzsche demonstrated. But Nietzsche also said that science would collapse on itself and lead to nihilism. Look around you. Nihilism is everywhere. -laelth From laelth@yabbs Sun Aug 14 00:49:07 1994 From: laelth@yabbs To: Xela@yabbs Subject: re: Eastern Religions Date: Sun Aug 14 00:49:07 1994 In message 237 xela said: "Stop romanticizing mysticism just because it's mystic." In no way did I intend to romanticize mysticism. I said that I felt attracted to the teachings of Kung Fu Tse, but there's nothing mystical about that. Kung Fu Tse is practical, political, and very realistic. He's not a mystic at all. What I was trying to say is that it may be impossible for Westerners to understand Eastern Mysticism. We can only understand the world through our own symbolic systems, and Eastern religions spring out of very different patterns of thought than those that we Westerners employ. Xela also said: "The East has done its share of rape and pillage." I don't deny this claim, but that does not refute the fact that Western civilization has been characterized by the need to expand and conquer other peoples and lands. Take the English, for example, who began as a wandering barbarian tribe in Central Europe, moved to Northern Europe, then to England, then to Ireland, then to the US, then to Australia, Africa, India, etc. We even put our flag on the moon, like we had colonized it, as if we owned it! My point was that this trend is part of what it means to be us. And we do it not only with land and property, but with ideas. We find, capture, and transform everything that we encounter. This is bound to be the case with Eastern religions as well. We cannot"think" in the way that an Eastern religion would require. Thus, we are doomed to mutate Eastern mysticism into something that it wasn't intended to be. Thus my skepticism about the Western desire to turn to Eastern religions for answers. -laelth From Xela@yabbs Sun Aug 14 01:10:09 1994 From: Xela@yabbs To: laelth@yabbs Subject: re: Eastern Religions Date: Sun Aug 14 01:10:09 1994 I still do not agree that only Westerners have a historical basis for divide and conquer. When you agreed with me that "the East has done its share of rape and pillage," you didn't sound convinced because you then showed how only the Westerners have had a colonial mindset, while ignoring the dynastial wars of the East; remember the Mongols? While both the East and West have the thesis and antithesis approach towards symbolic systems and understanding reality, that does not deny the historical reality that both have shed blood for power (money, land, title, etc.) and continue to do so. The whole recorded history of man has been the changing hands of power between men (both East and West) playing finite games. When the West turns to the East for answers, it involves mystic interpretations because the Western mind is growing tired of "reason" (as defined by western philosophers) and is turning to "new age" theories of reality. As this is mostly a yuppie phenomena, I wouldn't worry too much about it. :) Sorry for the angered post earlier, that was uncalled for and ignorant to say the least. Just wanted to apologize publicly. X From laelth@yabbs Sun Aug 14 01:14:54 1994 From: laelth@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: PC Date: Sun Aug 14 01:14:54 1994 In message 248 Natalie referred to "the blight known as PC ..." First off, let me say that I hate the term PC. Some neo-nazi ideologue came up with that term in order to give some liberal college professors a bad name, and to degrade their thinking, their teaching, and their argumentation. And it worked ... too well. But since we have no other way to "name" this phenomenon, then we might as well call it PC, just so that we can communicate. Basically, being PC means standing up for all the traditionally oppressed groups in our world and in our society. It means defending the rights of women, of minorities, of gays, of people with AIDS, people with disabilities, etc. Is that such a bad thing? Of course, most of the attacks against political correctness are masked under the guise of protecting freedom of speech. But let's face it, the PC people are liberals. They'll defend your right to say and to think whatever you want. But what they won't defend is your continuing to exploit and oppress the weaker members of our society. I believe that NAZIs have every right to pass out their literature, parade, and get attention in any legal way, but I cannot condone racist ACTS. No more lynchings! It's very easy in our current political climate to be very anti-PC. But I ask you to consider that being anti-PC (for many) means being anti-women, anti-minorities, anti-gay, and a lot of other ugly things. Is that really what you want to be? I mean really, who's the victim here? Is it the poor college student who's challenged by a liberal professor? Or is it women who are raped, African-Americans who are denied quality education, gays who are beaten just for being gay, Jews who were gassed by the millions this century? At whom do you want to be angry? -laelth (a PC prophet) From Natalie@yabbs Sun Aug 14 08:14:32 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: laelth@yabbs Subject: re: PC Date: Sun Aug 14 08:14:32 1994 i'm sorry, but i'm not goingto change the way i speak just so someone's feelings don'tget hurt. for example, i have an aunt. she's retarded. she is NOT mentally challenged. she is retarded. there is no challenge there because she does not have the mental faculties to succeed. i will not call black ppl african american because, dammit, they're americans. i don't go around insisting that i be called european american, do i? no, i don't. and in no way am i anti-gay. i am very offended that you even INSINUATED that about me. i happen to be bisexual, and while i'm not a political person (a fact that got me in trouble more time than i can count in my gay/lesbian lit class last winter), i still don't like the idea that i can lose my job just cause ihappen to think girls are cool too. and just one more thing. i think thata lot of feminists are anti-woman. by being anti-man, they are also being anti-woman. all men are NOT pigs, and women have to get some common sense. you can't go walking around by yourself in the middle of the night and expect to be ok...in an ideal world, ok, but this is NOT an ideal world...feminists have practically brainwashed young women of today into thinking these things, so they go to do things that are dangerous and then they get in trouble. in no way am i saying that it's a woman's fault for getting raped/assaulted/whatever, but i reserve the right to tell her that she was an idiot for putting herself in a dangerous situation. women have to learn to accept the consequences of what they do, as well as men. feminism (as it seems to me) is trying to absolve women of all responsibilites for their actions and placing that responsibility on the man. which is not rght. everyone has to accept their own mistakes and GET ON WITH LIFE. (and that goes with calling ppl (insert ethnic name) Americans. you're in america now, you're americans. get over it.) my $.02 worth.... natalie who thinks that PC is a fancy mindgame that is diverting our attention from thereal problems in this society From balistic@yabbs Sun Aug 14 13:29:46 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: PC Date: Sun Aug 14 13:29:46 1994 Can't wait to see that movie PCU, the one that bashes political correctness....oughtta be cool :) later Brian balistic Prince From Hash@yabbs Sun Aug 14 15:19:10 1994 From: Hash@yabbs To: balistic@yabbs Subject: re: re:the east Date: Sun Aug 14 15:19:10 1994 yessir, and i'd love to discuss other religions other than christianity here. not that taoism is a religion really..... From Hash@yabbs Sun Aug 14 15:25:13 1994 From: Hash@yabbs To: laelth@yabbs Subject: re: Eastern Religions Date: Sun Aug 14 15:25:13 1994 hmmm.....would you, by chance, be an isolationist? i would have to disagree with your point. though we are very western, that does not mean that we cannot or should not learn from the wisdom of others. i, for one, am a much more content and peaceful person because i have read books like the tao te ching, the teachings of chuang tze, the diamond sutra, etc. i the entire eastern philosophy and eastern religions speak to me as no western religion ever has. just a comment, hash From dmonger@yabbs Sun Aug 14 15:33:09 1994 From: dmonger@yabbs To: laelth@yabbs Subject: re: PC Date: Sun Aug 14 15:33:09 1994 In message re: PC, laelth said: > First off, let me say that I hate the term PC. Some neo-nazi ideologue > came up with that term in order to give some liberal college professors a > bad name, and to degrade their thinking, their teaching, and their > argumentation. And it worked ... too well. no, i think its the way that this movement has implememted itself that degrades it. I agree with the idea that you stated below, but not with the superficial way in which i have seen it implemented, which has been by trying to change the names and titles that we use for each other. > But since we have no other way to "name" this phenomenon, then we might as > well call it PC, just so that we can communicate. Basically, being PC > means standing up for all the traditionally oppressed groups in our world > and in our society. It means defending the rights of women, of > minorities, of gays, of people with AIDS, people with disabilities, etc. > Is that such a bad thing? The road to hell ... > Of course, most of the attacks against political correctness are masked > under the guise of protecting freedom of speech. But let's face it, the > PC people are liberals. They'll defend your right to say and to think > whatever you want. But what they won't defend is your continuing to > exploit and oppress the weaker members of our society. I believe that > NAZIs have every right to pass out their literature, parade, and get > attention in any legal way, but I cannot condone racist ACTS. No more > lynchings! hmm, interesting. name calling == lynching? i don't know about this. While i do agree that there are many terms used to describe minority groups that could be deemed offensive, because they were associated with them in a negative form in the past. But what's going to happen three years down the road when someone decides that being called physically challenged is now being used in an offensive context and thus is also degrading. the goal of the pc movement as i have seen it is to change people's perceptions of these minorities (which is a good thing) only by changing the way we describe them. It doesn't try to change their status, it doesn't really try to break down stereotypes, it attacks the symptoms, not the disease. > It's very easy in our current political climate to be very anti-PC. But I > ask you to consider that being anti-PC (for many) means being anti-women, > anti-minorities, anti-gay, and a lot of other ugly things. and being pro-choice makes you a baby killer. Odd that this argument (which i don't really agree with) when applied to abortion is usually discounted. non pc does not mean racist, there are many reasons other than that to dislike the movement. > Is that really > what you want to be? I mean really, who's the victim here? Is it the > poor college student who's challenged by a liberal professor? Or is it > women who are raped, African-Americans who are denied quality education, > gays who are beaten just for being gay, Jews who were gassed by the > millions this century? At whom do you want to be angry? or is it the person who is being told that they chose their words because they are racist, sexist pigs, even when that isn't the case. what does that have to do with the words i use. If i spell woman instead of womyn (something which was being argued about quite a bit on my campus for a while), does that make me sexist. If i call an 18 year old woman who acts 14 a girl, how am i saying anything against women? But both of these are statements that i don't think the PC movement would disagree with. and i want to be angry at the hyper-liberals who have decided that they are going to police my thoughts and language, and make decisions for me about what i will say based on their perceptions of what is and what is not offensive. I don't call black people black if they ask me not to. I don't call them by any of the more offensive terms unless they ask me to. I use the term men in cases where people claim i should say men/women, not because i only picture men in the position of the subject, but because its sounds better to me. if you really want to call me anti gay, woman, minority, whatever feel free. while i may find it offensive, it is your right to say and believe what you want. Enjoy it while it lasts -peter From Natalie@yabbs Sun Aug 14 22:00:17 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: dmonger@yabbs Subject: re: PC Date: Sun Aug 14 22:00:17 1994 i couldn't have said it better myself, peter :) i tend to get a little angry when someone tries to rationalize that silly little word game to me...cause that's all it is to me, a word game. just my actions, not my words. judge^^^^ natalie From daved@yabbs Sun Aug 14 22:11:10 1994 From: daved@yabbs To: laelth@yabbs Subject: re: Science Date: Sun Aug 14 22:11:10 1994 Science is not a religion. Science is always changing, where religion is doesnt. Science IS replacing religion. Religion is based on faith, science on facts. That is why it changes.with new facts comes new theories and proof to certain kinds of pre and current existence. Im sorry but religion was only made to settle peoples minds, where science hadnt yet explained. religion=myth. Science=fact. From Natalie@yabbs Mon Aug 15 00:11:47 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: daved@yabbs Subject: re: Science Date: Mon Aug 15 00:11:47 1994 oh, i hate to tell you this, but religion changes too. do you think that the christian of today's view of God is the same as the Christian of 500 years ago? i'd be willing to bet money on the fact that it isn't. i'm reading a book right now, called "A History Of God" (can't remember the author and i'm too lazy to go uptairs and look). the author's MAIN THESIS is that people's perceptions of God change as their lives and needs do. religion is NOT a static thing, it changes with the people who believe in it. the God of the Old Testament is NOT the God of Pope John Paul II. and while the God of Judaism and the God of Islam are the same God of Christianity, He manifests in different ways for Jews and Muslims, because they have different needs from God. I agree with laelth's assertion that science is replacing God in our lives. Doctors and scientists have the same power over us today that priests did 500 years ago. If you don't believe in the religion of science, then you're seen as hopelessly backwards and naive, unenlightened to the true facts. (note the parallel here between the scientists and {he missionaries of the imperialist period.) But what are facts? Just whatwe see, or SEEM to see. In a few hundred years, it might be discovered that what we believe (and you have to have justas much faith in science as you do in religion) is wrong, just was many seem to think that science has discovered the errors in religion. a doctor can condemn a patient to death with a few simple words, his diagnosis of his illness...but what if the doctor is wrong? a priest could condemn a person the death by proclaiming them a heretic...but what if the priest was wrong? the only difference between science and religion that i see is that science has technology on its side (all those fancy machines and equations), while religion has art, poetry, and imagination on its (religion has produced more great art than science could ever hope to). Science speaks to our brains, religion speaks to our hearts and souls. I, for one, gladly choose religion over science any day. BUt what religion? That i could not tell you. natalie who believes in SOMETHING, but isn't sure what... From Pele@yabbs Mon Aug 15 00:48:59 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: Science Date: Mon Aug 15 00:48:59 1994 That's the most incredible thing I've read on this base. I couldn't agree with you more. :) -Pele- From monk-y@yabbs Mon Aug 15 01:22:27 1994 From: monk-y@yabbs To: dmonger@yabbs Subject: re: PC Date: Mon Aug 15 01:22:27 1994 I speak as a hyper-liberal. As someone who would probably be called PC. As one of those dreaded "Tenured Radicals." As an "Illiberal Educator." As one of those smart-ass, college campus, pseudo-hippie Jansport-backpack-touting, Birkenstock-wearing, et cetera, et cetera About five years ago, when the Gen X thing was just getting off the ground as a summer cover story for Time, Newsweek, et al.,(these stories get heavy rotation in summer, I notice) I had a chance to watch the whole PC thing accompany it. Five years ago, PC was about being environmentally conscious, reacting against the Reagan 80's, in some (not all) cases, being pro-choice, pro-alternate lifestyle, and a variety of other positions, most of which were receiving little if any representation in our government. We didn't want to burn down our college president's house, but we did want him to know that making money from investments in a country which operated under apartheid did not represent our interests. Nowadays, all that PC is good for is coming up with new euphemisms for old problems, and I agree that it's over the top. But I think Laelth's point was not to call dmonger anti-anything, or make insinuations about Natalie. It was to call attention to the way that the "movement" has been constructed through the media to point of parody and caricature. When you judge us (and I guess I'll assume the mantle of PC, much as I hate to) by _our_ actions, we've done plenty. But on TV, and in the newrags, all you get are words. And the words you get are isolated examples of the extremes, just as the actions/words of Jerry Falwell hardly represent the mainstream of Christianity. Perhaps one point worth making is this: just because you choose not to euphemize with the rest of the Puritans, you are not anti-. But the way the whole debate has been constructed, we are all made to feel as though there are only the two options. And if I recall Laelth's post correctly, he was making the point that if we do restrict ourselves to those two positions, he'd rather sit on the PC side of the fence, because it's easier to live with euphemisms like "mentally challenged" and to work for positive change, than it is to resist the whole package. _STOP_ I'm not accusing here. I am explaining how he (and I, for that matter) perceive the situation, and how _we_ respond to it. If you do not agree, it doesn't make you evil. It makes you different. But then, that used to be the point that became PC, five years ago. There aren't only two positions, however much they want us to believe there are. Restlessly The Monkey King, Great Sage, Equal to Heaven From Deana.@yabbs Mon Aug 15 03:27:27 1994 From: Deana.@yabbs To: 8charact@yabbs Subject: Thanks Date: Mon Aug 15 03:27:27 1994 Thanks 8charact I appreciate it! *hug* Dee aka sienna From dmonger@yabbs Mon Aug 15 15:34:45 1994 From: dmonger@yabbs To: daved@yabbs Subject: re: Science Date: Mon Aug 15 15:34:45 1994 yep, one of the biggest differences between science and religion is that science is (for the most part, ignoring funding and other such problems) verifyable while it is built on certain basic beliefs like religions are, it is built upon fact rather than faith. faith is not necessary because you can always repeat a good experiment and see for yourself that the rules predict the outcome. on the otherhand, try repeating a miracle. -peter From Typhon@yabbs Mon Aug 15 19:18:21 1994 From: Typhon@yabbs To: laelth@yabbs Subject: PC is the new Plague Date: Mon Aug 15 19:18:21 1994 I hate the whole idea of "political Correctness" People are losing their lives over this filth, this silent pressure to conform...I don not agree with you that this is standing up for traditionally oppressed peoples, although I believe that you may think it truly is, and am not flaming you. I just despise this trend of "YOU MUST THINK AS WE DO" that has occured all over the country, at colleges and universities and even in the mainstream. Example: I wrote a poem about mutilating myself. IT WAS A POEM! I read this poem at a poetry reading. IMMEDIATELY, th ePC police )A posse of freshmen and sophmores who have taken it upon themselves to control all our thoughtrs apparently) came to em and told me that my poem would put the idea in others heads to do the same, that it was offensive and degrading (TO WHOM!? IT WAS ABOUT ME!?) and that they thought that Art should be uplifting to all. So I countered with the works of Kafka, Goethe, Eliot, Dante Aligheri, Pound, to name a few. They hadn'tr read them. So I basically said that until they actually took the TIME to read literature, I wasn't going tro meekly acceept their opinions on it. This blossomed into a major controversy. When the poem was published, they wrote enraged letters full of rhetoric to the school newspaper. When I read it again at trhe next Poetry reading, they booed me. (They were, however, set upon by nearly the entire crowd, so I felt vindicated) Why did they do this? To keep ME from degrading (They said) ME. I cannot do that, in my opinion, since being human is to be a meat package, a pain editor. So you see, THAT is what PC is to me. The rampant attempt to foist off another's mindset on you by the supposed "Intelligensia" who, after all, are better equipped to do our thinking than WE are. Typhon the Firebreather From 8charact@yabbs Mon Aug 15 22:35:42 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: Goodbye follow-up Date: Mon Aug 15 22:35:42 1994 Dee, Drop me a line when you get to school. My e-mail address is on 'yabbs'. Need any ideas for papers for the course just send a note... I'm sure I could give you a few suggestions. I have a graduate degree in Theology (that and a dime might get you a cup of coffee). Hope all goes well. Dave (alias 8charact) :-) From 8charact@yabbs Mon Aug 15 22:37:54 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: Intro. to Religion Date: Mon Aug 15 22:37:54 1994 Natalie, You never know..... You could be surprised or you could be right. 8charact From 8charact@yabbs Mon Aug 15 22:43:14 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: laelth@yabbs Subject: Western mysticism Date: Mon Aug 15 22:43:14 1994 laelth, Have you ever thought of looking at Western mysticism? Very similar to Eastern but with a decidedly Western flavor. Could be an interesting approach for you? There are some interesting women and men in this tradition which is one important issue that tends to distinguish it from Eastern traditions. Thomas Merton also provides some interesting insights into Eastern religious tradtions from a Western viewpoint. 8charact From 8charact@yabbs Mon Aug 15 23:01:05 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: daved@yabbs Subject: Science and Religion?? Not Date: Mon Aug 15 23:01:05 1994 daved, Even though science and religion may not always use the same approach to reality, they do have a lot in common. Science is based on a view of reality that depends on faith... It has faith in the scientific method. It has faith that there is a scientific method and that it works. Also, the notion that religion does not change or evolve is quite false. Christianity, Judaism, Islam have all changed and evolved. Buddhism and Hinduism change. All religions are in constant dialogue with the cultures in which they exists because they are the faith of people who live in changing cultures. Finally, if you really check out science carefully, you will find that its so-called facts are not always so clear and precise. Reality can be seen and understood in many ways. Science offers one approach; religion offers another. They are not antagonistic, rather complementary. Problems only evolve when one or the other "thinks" that it has every answer without acknowledging that the other point of value may have something to share in understanding reality. In defense of religion, it does have its place. Religion (as predicted by some philosophers) will not go away just because we have science. Enough said.... Probably more than I should. 8charact From 8charact@yabbs Mon Aug 15 23:02:43 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: Science Date: Mon Aug 15 23:02:43 1994 Nastalie, SOme good points in that response. 8charact From Page@yabbs Mon Aug 15 23:54:18 1994 From: Page@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Comedy Relief Date: Mon Aug 15 23:54:18 1994 I would like to announce that I have joined my high schoo's glee club... So let's all be gay and happy... That's what I think I should do and everyone else... That way we can all be in full spirit... From pixy@yabbs Tue Aug 16 01:30:50 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: PC Date: Tue Aug 16 01:30:50 1994 In message re: PC, Natalie said: > i'm sorry, but i'm not goingto change the way i speak just so someone's > feelings don'tget hurt. for example, i have an aunt. she's retarded. > she is NOT mentally challenged. she is retarded. there is no challenge > there because she does not have the mental faculties to succeed. i will *I might be 20 posts behind, but who cares? I've a few cents to throw on this one* NO one has ever been able to define the term political correctness to me, so here's my guess: PC is the euphemising of language for the sake of others. Now, using that definition, let me unfold a small irony in the PC movement. Ironically, by using the term Politically correct instead of oversensitive or spineless, aren't you being somewhat politically correct? Enough of that. I think that PC is a Republican ploy to capatalize on the tensions and frustrations that have risen from the average man as he tries to adjust to the liberal mind-set. I would say it's a great ploy, too; it's been a highly successful addition to the usual Republican dogma. And why not? Now the Republicans can make the Liberals look like oppressors instead of vice versa. Of course, the whole PC phenomina sounds great until you begin to THINK about it. Is the anti-PC movement founded upon well thought out principles and values, or a distracting political ploy by hack conservatives? Naturally, it's the latter. Think about it, if being racially and sexually and whatever else sensitive when you speak is such a bad thing, why don't the hack conservatives take their beliefs to their logical end and use such words as "nigger", "bitch", and "cripple"--well, in public, that is? I am a firm believer that the liberal racial ideology will do more to separate people than unite them; I think that forced sensitivity leads to partisan animosity. But I also believe that mainstream "conservatives" are shortsighted--certainly not self aware--in rebelling against political correctness. In fact, I believe most people who throw the term PC around alot employ it in their own way. Don't many mainstream conservatives demand sensitivities of their own? What else could we see censorship of "obscenities" as but the exercise of conservative correctness? So, feel free to fight PC, but don't pussy out on us and only go half way. pixy From pixy@yabbs Tue Aug 16 01:44:01 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: PC Date: Tue Aug 16 01:44:01 1994 In message re: PC, Natalie said: > i tend to get a little angry when someone tries to rationalize that silly > little word game to me...cause that's all it is to me, a word game. just > my actions, not my words. judge^^^^ Don't kid yourself, speaking is an action. What you say does mean alot. Unfortunately, people take words directed towards them way too seriously--it's the animal within us. You say that you don't believe in PC, but if I started throwing words like "bitch", "ho", or "dyke" in your direction, you'd probalbly demand more sensitivity from me in some form or fashion. I wouldn't care one way or the other what you call me; "honkey", "whitey", "nut" wouldn't ever bother me. Sure, I think the world would be a much friendlier place if people weren't such crybabies about the English language, but I'm also convinced I'm one of the only people who is willing to fully implement such beliefs. pixy From pixy@yabbs Tue Aug 16 02:04:13 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: Typhon@yabbs Subject: re: PC is the new Plague Date: Tue Aug 16 02:04:13 1994 In message PC is the new Plague, Typhon said: > I hate the whole idea of "political Correctness" People are losing their > lives over this filth, this silent pressure to conform...I don not agree > with you that this is standing up for traditionally oppressed peoples, > although I believe that you may think it truly is, and am not flaming you. That's the fault in the liberal brand of political correctness and race relations. If you want to make people equal, you don't give them special consideration, you drop them into NIetzche's goog old funnel with the rest of you plebes and duke it out with everyone regardless of who they are. That's what made america the melting pot. Notice it was never called the centrifuge. We didn't bring equality by treating people as members of a separate group, we brought it by letting them all in and leaving to fend for themselves. American culture didn't try to separate and deal different sets of people, it gave them one option: adapt to survive. It seems insane to respect and preserve cultures. Humanity gains from the clashing and changing of cultures. People are at their best when they are culturally assimilating. Take the Indians, for example. If Europe had never come to America, the stagnant and inferior Native culture would still be here. Now, I didn't say that the Indians themselves were inferior--that'd make me a racist--but their culture wasbegging to be eradicated. So, if you want to cure racism, destroy races. Forget about all the taboos of race relations. Let the cultures merge and eventually we will have unity. pixy From sienna@yabbs Tue Aug 16 02:56:21 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Typhon@yabbs Subject: re: PC is the new Plague Date: Tue Aug 16 02:56:21 1994 I agree whole-heartedly! Here is a quote for you all: "Be yourself. Who else is better qualified?" -Giblin Dee From sienna@yabbs Tue Aug 16 02:56:57 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: 8charact@yabbs Subject: re: Goodbye follow-up Date: Tue Aug 16 02:56:57 1994 Thanks a lot, Dave...I sure will keep you in mind! *hug* Dee :) From Cat@yabbs Tue Aug 16 10:11:50 1994 From: Cat@yabbs To: natalie@yabbs Subject: re: PC is the new Plague Date: Tue Aug 16 10:11:50 1994 i was in the cafeteria at school with my friend from korea and someone came up to us and asked him if he was chinese and he said no but i am asian...and the person said no, you're oriental...asian isn't politically correct...that's when i think the pc movement has gotten out of hand...when we have people telling others what they should call themselves. From Cat@yabbs Tue Aug 16 10:17:11 1994 From: Cat@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Date: Tue Aug 16 10:17:11 1994 i think one of the best classes i took at uvm was a class on asian religious traditions. i've read up on a lot of different religions, and though they might have different deities and creation stories and whatnot, they all seem to have similar themes and ideas...one thing (out of many :) ) that i can't stand about my church is that they assume they have the "right" religion and that everyone else is wrong...religion is all a matter of faith..i don't think there is a right and a wrong religion...i also think there's a difference between being religious and having a religion...and i still don't believe in church anyway so.... i have gone to many churches and church type things and i think the only one i ever really liked was the quaker meeting i went to with a friend. i also liked that stain glassed windows in the catholic church in burlington, but i couldn't for the life of me tell you what that service had been about. From dmonger@yabbs Tue Aug 16 11:01:43 1994 From: dmonger@yabbs To: pixy@yabbs Subject: re: PC is the new Plague Date: Tue Aug 16 11:01:43 1994 i don't have any problem with respecting and preserving cultures. I think there is a lot we can learn, and to ignore them or squash them is a horrible thing. However, i do have some problem with "multiculturalism". IMO, we're americans, not african americans, or irish americans. What we need is an american society which can accept all its members, not a different little society for each different culture that we're part of. -peter From dmonger@yabbs Tue Aug 16 11:03:26 1994 From: dmonger@yabbs To: Cat@yabbs Subject: re: PC is the new Plague Date: Tue Aug 16 11:03:26 1994 In message re: PC is the new Plague, Cat said: > and the person said no, you're oriental...asian isn't politically > correct... and what happens when the PC police decide that oriental is also not politically correct because it has taken on an offensive connotation as well. Do we pick another new word? -peter From Cat@yabbs Tue Aug 16 11:27:29 1994 From: Cat@yabbs To: dmonger@yabbs Subject: re: PC is the new Plague Date: Tue Aug 16 11:27:29 1994 In message re: PC is the new Plague, dmonger said: > and what happens when the PC police decide that oriental is also not > politically correct because it has taken on an offensive connotation as well. > Do we pick another new word? i say let's just scrap the whole thing. it startes out as a good idea perhaps with good intentions, but now it's so out of hands it's like another form of censorship. -tammie From Typhon@yabbs Tue Aug 16 12:12:33 1994 From: Typhon@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: Politically Correct Religon Date: Tue Aug 16 12:12:33 1994 Since this is the religon board... I think It's amusing that the Catholic Church, which still won't allow Woman Preiests, is willing to go with "God The Creator, God the Offsping, and God the Holy Spirit.) Typhon the Usurper From Hash@yabbs Tue Aug 16 12:40:43 1994 From: Hash@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: all this pc stuff Date: Tue Aug 16 12:40:43 1994 yes, i'd have to agree that the entire 'pc' movement has gotten a bit out of hand. but i wouldnt agree that it's intentions werent good. pc began as a movement to introduce greater sensitivity to all, and it has degenerated into a silly word game. one cant critiscise the entire movement for that... where i stand...if i can alter the words i use (or whatever) so that a person i'm trying to communicate with does not immediately disregard what i'm saying just based on my selection of words, i'm a happy gal. it doesnt put me out too much to try to be sensitive. i want people to hear my meaning as opposed to the words i use. if that means changing those words without destroying their meaning, and that my message is conveyed instead of ignored, i embrace 'pc' instead of throwing petty criticisms at it. that's all. hahs From Cat@yabbs Tue Aug 16 12:48:58 1994 From: Cat@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: religion Date: Tue Aug 16 12:48:58 1994 hmm do you think people turn to religion because they fear death and what lies (if anything) lies beyond it, or because they fear this life and what's in it? -tammie From sienna@yabbs Tue Aug 16 13:51:18 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Cat@yabbs Subject: re: PC is the new Plague Date: Tue Aug 16 13:51:18 1994 Cat said the following: > correct...that's when i think the pc movement has gotten out of > hand...when we have people telling others what they should call > themselves. Excellent point, Tammie! *hug* Dee From sienna@yabbs Tue Aug 16 13:52:30 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: dmonger@yabbs Subject: re: PC is the new Plague Date: Tue Aug 16 13:52:30 1994 Sienna is a Female Irish-German-Cherokee-English American (hehehehe) ;) Dee From sienna@yabbs Tue Aug 16 14:00:56 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Cat@yabbs Subject: re: PC is the new Plague Date: Tue Aug 16 14:00:56 1994 Cat said in message re: PC is the new Plague: > perhaps with good intentions, but now it's so out of hand it's like > another form of censorship. Aptly put...well-said my feline friend! *hug* Dee From dmonger@yabbs Tue Aug 16 14:57:36 1994 From: dmonger@yabbs To: Cat@yabbs Subject: re: religion Date: Tue Aug 16 14:57:36 1994 well it depends on the religion. for christianity, it helps with both. It provides something relatively concrete after death (as opposed to nothingness which is a concept i'm still working on after 21 years of trying to figure it out every night while i fall asleep), and it provides guidelines to help one make decisions throughout their lives. Also, a lot of people have a great deal of trouble with the idea that all the events in the world are random (not that i'm saying they are). It can be much more comforting to believe that everything happens for a reason. -peter From htoaster@yabbs Tue Aug 16 15:08:02 1994 From: htoaster@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: pc movement Date: Tue Aug 16 15:08:02 1994 half of the reason that it is so out of hand is that the people against it started suggesting all of the stupid pc terms that should also get put into use... i think taken at face value it is a great thing. its also not a whole lot more than what has always been going on. calling a black person a "nigger" has been balked on for the past 30 years, but it was just never labeled as being non-pc... i just try not to label people in ways which might offend them...and i'd like to not be labeled in ways that can offend me... alex From Natalie@yabbs Tue Aug 16 16:34:38 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: Cat@yabbs Subject: re: PC is the new Plague Date: Tue Aug 16 16:34:38 1994 yep, i concur...odd....i thought asian WAS PC, while oriental wasn't...hmmm....ah well, maybe i got all confused... natalie From Natalie@yabbs Tue Aug 16 16:36:45 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: Cat@yabbs Subject: re: Date: Tue Aug 16 16:36:45 1994 hmmm...i've been meaning to get to a quaker service one of these days...and i like going to mass....but i wish there was a church near me that still did it in latin, not in english, i've only heard mass said in latin once, in a BIG old stone church in boston...it was pretty cool...if i ever get married, i want to so it catholic style, i think...i looooove all the ceremony.... natalie From Natalie@yabbs Tue Aug 16 16:39:17 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: Typhon@yabbs Subject: re: Politically Correct Religon Date: Tue Aug 16 16:39:17 1994 oh, you're in for it now....you get to hear me explain ALL about the Trinity, cause i JUST finished reading that section in my history of god book....basically, the trinity is NOT 3 separate beings, but three aspects of one being...but when one aspect is in the front, the other 2 always show thru...it's hard to explain, but i think it's a cool idea...but gnosticism is still cooooooler.... natalie who listens at night for the words of sophia on the night breezes... From Natalie@yabbs Tue Aug 16 16:42:02 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: Cat@yabbs Subject: re: religion Date: Tue Aug 16 16:42:02 1994 hmmm...my best friend claims that my interest in religion has gone beyond the scholarly, ie, i'm looking for SOMETHING...i'm not sure why i'm becoming more religious than i was before...i'm not scared of life and i'm not scared of death...it's just that i feel that there has to be a reason for my being here. i can't accept an existentialist view of the world... but then again, maybe it's just cause my family's irish catholic... natalie From 8charact@yabbs Tue Aug 16 21:21:00 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: Cat@yabbs Subject: re: religion Date: Tue Aug 16 21:21:00 1994 Tammie, Let's see.... None of the above. People turn to religion for a variety of reasons; each personal. 8charact From 8charact@yabbs Tue Aug 16 21:26:56 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: Religion and Existentialism Date: Tue Aug 16 21:26:56 1994 Natalie, Let's keep in mind that many existentialists were either Christian or religious, i.e. Kierkegard, Gabriel Marcel, Martin Buber (Jewish). Religious and /or Christian beliefs are not necessarily in opposition to existentialism. Sartre was not the only existentialist! 8charact From Natalie@yabbs Wed Aug 17 01:14:18 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: 8charact@yabbs Subject: re: Religion and Existentialism Date: Wed Aug 17 01:14:18 1994 well, sartre and camus are the only existentialists i've read, so tht was what i was thinking about when i said that....i realize that there are christian existentialists...perhaps i might have better have said a nietzchean view of the world (but then again, i really haven't read him either). blah, i just can't accept the idea of a world w/o some sort of divine presence... natalie From Cat@yabbs Wed Aug 17 10:17:04 1994 From: Cat@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: Religion and Existentialism Date: Wed Aug 17 10:17:04 1994 hey nat, ever read the grand inqisitor? it's in the brothers karamazov...you might like that... From Hrothgar@yabbs Wed Aug 17 18:30:06 1994 From: Hrothgar@yabbs To: natalie@yabbs Subject: re: Religion and Existentialism Date: Wed Aug 17 18:30:06 1994 Well said, nat. The trinity (as I was taught in my conservative Episcopal upbringing) is One Body. The saying is "3 in 1, 1 in 3." The first half means that our God is all-encompassing (as far as being Father, Son, and Holy Ghost), while the latter refers to, as you put it, when one takes the foreground, the others are still manifested in their own way. I'll claim general ignorance in readings of Eastern cultures, but I have been to services in America such as Greek and Russian Orthodox, communal (fascinating people), and Hamish (also quite fascinating), and have learned a bit of Hebrew faith as well. My feeling is (and I wish I knew who to credit with this) is, whatever suits you best, makes you feel most comfortable, or best meets your needs, that's the one you should pursue. We shouldn't concern ourselves with which religion is more right, or why it's better to have specific beliefs, but rather, what's best for us as individuals. Food for thought... Hroth From Typhon@yabbs Wed Aug 17 19:30:47 1994 From: Typhon@yabbs To: Cat@yabbs Subject: re: religion Date: Wed Aug 17 19:30:47 1994 I fear this life, but not death..I will not feel the pain they all want me to feel. I won't be hurt. I'll burn love out of my mind, disavow the nature of mankind, cast myself from it and become the only one of my new race...alone forever...forever apart..Isolated from whatever gods would make a thing like me. I, and all mankind, am an abomination, and any diety would be disgusted at this grim and hellish brood. We should all be annihilated. Typhon the Forsaken From Typhon@yabbs Wed Aug 17 19:32:39 1994 From: Typhon@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: Nietzche Date: Wed Aug 17 19:32:39 1994 The man was too damned optimistic...He never saw the blight of mankind infesting the world, destroying and reaving. Typhon the Forsaken From Pele@yabbs Thu Aug 18 00:23:38 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: re: PC Date: Thu Aug 18 00:23:38 1994 This may be behind but. I can't see anything wrong with making an effort to be sensitive to the people around you. I don't think that we should make up new words to describe people if the present words were never considered derogatory. By that, I mean. The word "dwarf" has long been used as a medical term to describe those members of our society who are suffering from dwarfism. I would therefore call a dwarf a dwarf and not a person who is "vertically challenged." I think to call someone who is blind "visually impared" is rediculous. If this is what PC is supposed to be, then i'm against it. However, there is some good to come from it. I happen to like the fact that people are careful not to use the word "nigger" around me. Why? Because it has long been a derogatory term to describe black people. Now if I was brought up hearing the word "nigger" in a non-negative way all my life, I wouldn't care. My friends, who happen to be both black and why use the word in conversation (listen to rap). It's not a negative term so it doesn't bother me. I guess what I'm tring to say is that PC should not be about terminoloby but about it's intent. I mean if you're sensitive to people around you then I"m OK with you. I mean, if you know a person has a problem with being called blind. Don't call them blind. Heck, don't even mention it at all. From Pele@yabbs Thu Aug 18 00:36:43 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Cat@yabbs Subject: re: religion Date: Thu Aug 18 00:36:43 1994 I think that's an intiguing question. One that a lot of people have asked. Shakespeare touched on it in Hamelt's "To be or not to be" speech. I personally don't really know. I know for sure that one thing that most religions provide is an assurance of a better life after death. How you achieve that particular life depends on the doctrine of the respective religion. I think a lot of people need religion. I know I do. When I think about the living hell I endure daily, it's...comforting to believe that once I am done living through this, I'll have something better to look forward to. It keeps me going from day to day. There are others, however, who are quite content with their lives and who don't need religion in that way. Those who do turn to religion from amongst these numbers probably do so, IMO, because they like the idea of immortality. Mankind has a tendency to quest for immortality and the idea of living forever, no matter how unlikely, is very appealing. It is this that makes people take a leap of faith. They are willing to discard all logic and rational in order to hope for something bigger and greater than them. This give us perspective and a certain level of humility. My $2 :) From Pele@yabbs Thu Aug 18 00:40:58 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: The Trinity Date: Thu Aug 18 00:40:58 1994 I never could accept the idea that God is three separate identities rolled into one. It denies the very concept of God (God created man in his own image and junk). From Natalie@yabbs Thu Aug 18 06:40:23 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: The Trinity Date: Thu Aug 18 06:40:23 1994 however, the idea of the trinity is central to christianity. there's a very good explanation of the trinity in a book called 'a history of god'. i don't feel like running up 2 flights of stairs to getthe author's name so i'm not going to, but it's a very readable book, very scholarly, and it just came out in hardcover in the US so you might be able to pick up at your local library (where i got it). check it out, it's cooooool... natalie From alarm@yabbs Thu Aug 18 18:17:52 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: The Trinity Date: Thu Aug 18 18:17:52 1994 I heard this great explanation of the Trinity that you might think about. God spent a long time telling the Hebrew children that there is only one God and that he was it. The most repeated scripture for the Jews is the shema which means hear. Hear O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one. Then came Jesus. The disciples (Jews) saw him doing things that only God could do. Especially when he raised from the dead, but even before that they were experiencing God through Jesus Christ. Then the Holy Spirit came and again they were experiencing God through the Holy Spirit. Peter called Jesus God and Peter also called the Holy Spirit God. But remember, Peter and the other apostles were Jews who primarily thought of God as one. So later theologians saw the witness of the apostles to the oneness of God and to the threeness of their experience and they termed the experience with God reported in the New Testament Trinity. alarm From Pele@yabbs Thu Aug 18 19:56:07 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: The Trinity Date: Thu Aug 18 19:56:07 1994 In message re: The Trinity, alarm said: > But remember, Peter and the other apostles were Jews who primarily thought > of God as one. So later theologians saw the witness of the apostles to the > oneness of God and to the threeness of their experience and they termed > the experience with God reported in the New Testament Trinity. That has long been my opinion on the Trinity. It is something that early Theologians and heads of Catholic state created in order to justify worshiping Jesus as a God. I find that if common sense is applied, one will more likely come up with the idea that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are separate entities. I mean...think about it. Who was Jesus praying to in Gethsename (Sp?)? Himself? God is supposed to have created man in his own image. It would stand to reason, therefore that he would exist in a similar manner to us. Aside from those who suffer from multiple personality disorder, I can't think of anyone who is three people rolled up in one. I think that God is God. And that Jesus is his son. And that the Holy Spirit was sent by God, as Jesus said it would be to help nurture us in our exploration of life. They are three separate entities. If you want to call them all God. I'm cool with that. But I need biblical proof that these Gods are all the same guy before I accept it. And as of yet...no matter what, I have never heard any concrete biblical support for this idea. Thanx for reading. :) -Pele- From Natalie@yabbs Thu Aug 18 20:21:30 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: The Trinity Date: Thu Aug 18 20:21:30 1994 so what you're saying is that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three separate, but equal entities? if that's what you're saying, then all three are gods...and that makes you a polytheist, NOT a monotheist. the trinity is one of the hardest concepts to understand in christianity, scholars argued for centuries over it. it's originally a greek idea, which made it somewhat foreign to those not used to thinking in the same way as the greeks. but as i said, the three beings in the trinity are the three masks used by a God which we cannot ever fully know or understand because God is, well, God. natalie From pixy@yabbs Fri Aug 19 01:05:21 1994 From: pixy@yabbs To: Typhon@yabbs Subject: re: Politically Correct Religon Date: Fri Aug 19 01:05:21 1994 In message Politically Correct Religon, Typhon said: > Since this is the religon board... > I think It's amusing that the Catholic Church, which still won't allow > Woman Preiests, is willing to go with "God The Creator, God the Offsping, > and God the Holy Spirit.) Now, I really shouldn't bother trying to defend the old Catholic Church--I haven't been in about 10 years--but I gotta jump on this one. Ever since the years of the Lingual analysts and Kierkegaard, it's been pretty obvious that religious debates are futile. I don't like the Catholic Church's position on alot of things, but there is no point in arguing or judging them. How can you prove them right or wrong? Maybe God doesn't want women to be priests, or priests to marry. It really is up to God. Perhaps, maybe God is doing all sorts of nonsense things, working outside of logic simply becuase he has power over all of it. Who knows? pixy From Pele@yabbs Fri Aug 19 09:13:26 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: The Trinity Date: Fri Aug 19 09:13:26 1994 I don't know to think exactly. But think on this. Lucifer had a great deal of power while in heaven. In fact, he was second only to God. To us, Lucifer was a god. In fact, there are those who would call Satan the God of Evil (Or something like that). The bible does not discount the presence of other Gods, just disavows there importance. "For I the Lord thy God am a Jealous God!" (Exodous 20) suggests the presence of other Gods. I am more willing to believe in three separate entities, all of which we call God than to believe that God would be so very different from us after making us "in his own image." Mankind has always stipulated that if there is something about God we don't understand, it's because, as you put it, "well...he's God" I like to think that God is not this ruler who who we will never understand. God is greater than us but he is not unreacheable. And like I said before. I'd like some Biblical support for the Trinity idea. -Pele- From Pele@yabbs Fri Aug 19 09:14:50 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: natalie@yabbs Subject: re: The Trinity Date: Fri Aug 19 09:14:50 1994 Make that..."I don't know what to think" =) From Typhon@yabbs Fri Aug 19 10:15:11 1994 From: Typhon@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: Trinity Date: Fri Aug 19 10:15:11 1994 Actually, it comes, in a modified way, from Zoroasterianism, where God was one being with to selves, equal, co-eternal, yet one. Ahura Mazda and Ahriman, equal yet one. Also, this leads to Satan's inclusion in the christian religon as well. Typhon From alarm@yabbs Sat Aug 20 10:42:33 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: The Trinity Date: Sat Aug 20 10:42:33 1994 Toward a biblical justification for the TRINITY: Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Ireael: The Lord your God, the Lord is one. Isaiah 43:10-13 You are my witnesses, declares the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior. . . . John 20:28 Thomas said to [Jesus], "My Lord and my God!" To which Jesus replied "Because you have seen me, you have believed." Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son [Jesus] he says, Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, . . . Acts 5:3-4 . . . Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit . . . You have not lied to men but to God. These are just a sampling of the verses that can be used. Here is how it goes. Deuteronomy - God is one. Isaiah - There is only one God and no other. John - Jesus is God. Titus - Jesus is God. Hebrews - Jesus is God. Acts - the Holy Spirit is God. And as you already know, Jesus addressed God as his father. That makes one God with three manifestations. alarm, who is a student, a preacher, and a husband - a sort of three in one type of person ;) From Pele@yabbs Sat Aug 20 19:01:44 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: The Trinity Date: Sat Aug 20 19:01:44 1994 I have heard those verses before. Thanx. But I don't know if that justifies saying that God is all three rolled into one. I think it solidifies the idea that God is supreme, but I just don't know. Think of it this way. The Hindu believe in many different gods but worship Brahma, the Creator, as the supreme. I am inclined to believe that Jesus and the holy spirit are aspects of God, just as children are different aspects of their parents. Jesus possesses something that God did not--Humanity. It's an aspect he picked up from his mother, Mary, a human. Notice that, except in the case of Ananaias and Sapphira (Sp?) "God" has become more humane and less wrathful. Jesus said that he himself speaks to God on our behalf. I think that it's easy to evolve the idea of the Trinity when we have to have "One God." That's just my personal feeling on the matter. I'd be happy to discuss it. I'm not entirely Bible ignorant so I'd be happy to hear your personal (not the established Church's) opinion on the matter. -Pele- From Natalie@yabbs Sun Aug 21 00:11:14 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: The Trinity Date: Sun Aug 21 00:11:14 1994 children are not different aspects off their parents. i am my own person, i am not bits of my mother and father thrown together. while they may have influenced the person i am, ultimately, _I_ decide that. it's like there's this BEING, and it's got 3 different masks it wears. one is God, the other is the Son, and the other is the Holy Spirit. but it's all of those things while it's wearing that mask, and more things that we can't understand. it says in the book on god that i'm reading that hte only thing that you can say about god and be completely right is the god is unknowable and incomprehensible to us natalie From Pele@yabbs Sun Aug 21 00:32:37 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: The Trinity Date: Sun Aug 21 00:32:37 1994 So let me get this straight....God is suffering from Multilple Personality Disorder? Because the fact is, thoughout the entire New Testament Jesus is communicating with his father through prayer. And twice does God say, while Jesus is standing right there "This is my son, with whom I am well pleased" (or something like that). So if God is really all three entities then he must be suffering from some sort of disorder because it seems to me that he thinks that he, his son and the holy spirit are separate. I think someone needs to suggest to God a good pyschotherapist and help him work through his obvious confusion. From Natalie@yabbs Sun Aug 21 00:59:04 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: The Trinity Date: Sun Aug 21 00:59:04 1994 blah....the trinity is just something you have to BELIEVE in...you can't explain it away with logic...it's above all logic and reason as we know it...why? cause it's god of course :) natalie From dmonger@yabbs Sun Aug 21 01:55:35 1994 From: dmonger@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: The Trinity Date: Sun Aug 21 01:55:35 1994 But since none of us can look into the face of god, we'll never know while we're alive whether god is a three-faced being or not. personally i think the trinity was an attempt to combine several concepts of a supreme being into one. The idea that god, while one being, can manifest him in many different ways; god the father, god the son, and god the holy ghost being the ones that he has chosen like nat said, its something you have to take on faith. Either you believe it or you don't. How you justify that belief is up to you, but its not something that one could really prove. -peter From Pele@yabbs Sun Aug 21 02:06:55 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: dmonger@yabbs Subject: re: The Trinity Date: Sun Aug 21 02:06:55 1994 One of the things I pride myself on is my ability to hear an idea and take that idea and reevalute my believes if need be. I don't know if the trinity exists or not. I just say that the argument in it's favor doesnt' hold water. Biblically or Logically. I'm not saying that "I'm right and the established Church is wrong." I'm just saying that it makes more sense to not complicate our idea of God any more than it already is. Point to make. I don't believe in God because I was taught to. I believe in God because I had a personal experience with him. We are taught to believe in the Trinity. I have had no experience with it. If I meet someone who has, I'd be happy to hear about it. From dmonger@yabbs Sun Aug 21 08:59:49 1994 From: dmonger@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: The Trinity Date: Sun Aug 21 08:59:49 1994 In message re: The Trinity, Pele said: > One of the things I pride myself on is my ability to hear an idea and take > that idea and reevalute my believes if need be. Okay, i didn't mean to question your ability to do this. Sorry > I don't know if the > trinity exists or not. I just say that the argument in it's favor doesnt' > hold water. Biblically or Logically. I'm not saying that "I'm right and > the established Church is wrong." I'm just saying that it makes more > sense to not complicate our idea of God any more than it already is. Makes sense to me. > Point to make. I don't believe in God because I was taught to. I believe > in God because I had a personal experience with him. I'm very glad to hear this. I don't think anyone should be "taught" religion, > We are taught to > believe in the Trinity. I have had no experience with it. If I meet > someone who has, I'd be happy to hear about it. I have to ask. Were you taught that the bible was the word of god (tm). If so, then perhaps basing your ideas about the trinity on the absense or presence of biblical material might be as much of a mistake as "i believe in god cause dad told me to". -peter who isn't trying to slight anyone right now since i have neither the time nor the energy for a good fight :) From Pele@yabbs Sun Aug 21 14:18:05 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: dmonger@yabbs Subject: re: The Trinity Date: Sun Aug 21 14:18:05 1994 You're right. I was taught that the bible was the word of God. BUt believe it or not, I don't put much stock in it as the sole source of religious information. I'm not saying that I don't believe in the Trinity because it isn't mentioned directly in the Bible. What I'm saying is that those who do believe in the Trinity claim to do so because of Biblical evidence. That evidence, IMO has too many holes in it for me to accept it as true. I have never heard anyone say "I believe in the Trinity because I had an experience one that lead me to feel this way." I hear all the time about peoplewho had life-changing experiences to do with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit--separately. I just think that we've accepted as a part of our belief system something that has no real foundation for belief. -Pele- From Natalie@yabbs Sun Aug 21 20:27:29 1994 From: Natalie@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: The Trinity Date: Sun Aug 21 20:27:29 1994 hmmmm...i don't believe in the trinity because of biblical proof. i'm not much of a bible scholar. i accept the trinity on faith. again, i direct you to Karen Armstrong's "A History Of God" for a really great explanation of the Trinity and why it is so central to christian belief. I really do think you should read this...not to convince you or anything, but so you can see the basis of this belief, and the scholarly foundation (not to metion the religious one) upon which it is based. natalie From Pele@yabbs Sun Aug 21 21:46:12 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: The Trinity Date: Sun Aug 21 21:46:12 1994 will do. From balistic@yabbs Sun Aug 21 22:13:36 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: The Trinity Date: Sun Aug 21 22:13:36 1994 This trinity conversation remids me of a Certs commercial, "3, 3, 3 spirits in one" :) Brian the breath-freshener From sienna@yabbs Sun Aug 21 23:38:31 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: A question I have Date: Sun Aug 21 23:38:31 1994 Say something about angels. Dee From sienna@yabbs Sun Aug 21 23:39:21 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: re: A question I have Date: Sun Aug 21 23:39:21 1994 If you met Jesus face to face, what question would you like to ask him? From sienna@yabbs Sun Aug 21 23:39:53 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: re: A question I have Date: Sun Aug 21 23:39:53 1994 I was wondering if anyone would be interested in sharing an experience of answered prayer? Dee From sienna@yabbs Sun Aug 21 23:40:07 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: re: A question I have Date: Sun Aug 21 23:40:07 1994 What is prayer to all of you anyway? Dee From sienna@yabbs Sun Aug 21 23:41:10 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: re: A question I have Date: Sun Aug 21 23:41:10 1994 I also wondered what worship and faith mean to all of you, and in what ways does your faith in God (or lack thereof) affect your life? Dee From sienna@yabbs Sun Aug 21 23:41:54 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: re: A question I have Date: Sun Aug 21 23:41:54 1994 How can one know what God's will is for one's life? Dee Someone searching for answers to questions I didn't even ask..... From sienna@yabbs Sun Aug 21 23:43:55 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: re: A question I have Date: Sun Aug 21 23:43:55 1994 What does this mean to you: "Bear one anothers burdens" GAL. 6.2 If you all are wondering what the hell has gotten into me, well, I almost got to meet my maker Friday night (in case some of you were wondering why I havent been around). I am really curious...please give me some feedback. Sincerely, Dee Someone who sometimes wishes she didn't survive. From Pele@yabbs Mon Aug 22 00:17:18 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: A question I have Date: Mon Aug 22 00:17:18 1994 Wow, full of questions aren't you. :) Well..let's see. I'll answer at least one of your questions. If he I met Jesus, I'd ask him what God was thinking when he made me. From sienna@yabbs Mon Aug 22 12:33:40 1994 From: sienna@yabbs To: Pele@yabbs Subject: re: A question I have Date: Mon Aug 22 12:33:40 1994 I know what God was thinking when he made me...he thought "Here is someone I can have fun with!" Dee From balistic@yabbs Mon Aug 22 15:58:59 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: lighten up :) Date: Mon Aug 22 15:58:59 1994 "IF YOU ever reached total enlightenment while you're drinking a beer, I bet it would make beer shoot out your nose." :-) Always look on the bright side of life..., balistic From alarm@yabbs Mon Aug 22 17:35:59 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: A question I have Date: Mon Aug 22 17:35:59 1994 Faith means believing that even God has a sense of humor. ;) alarm From robtelee@yabbs Mon Aug 22 22:06:35 1994 From: robtelee@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: A question I have Date: Mon Aug 22 22:06:35 1994 IMO, faith is something I accept without question. I really cannot explain it any further than that. It is something that I feel deep inside me. Worship can take place anywhere. I ahve worshipped in cthedrals and in the open air. I have worshipped with large crowds and in the company of a couple of friends. Worship can take place anywhere and anytime. I worship whenever I feel the need to speak to God. Not just requests for God, but also to praise his name. I hope that helps. robtelee From robtelee@yabbs Mon Aug 22 22:10:25 1994 From: robtelee@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: A question I have Date: Mon Aug 22 22:10:25 1994 The passage you quoted means, IMO, that one should spend time in the company of believers. If you have a problem, take it to the minister of choice. The company of believers help to uplift each other and to share each other's burdens. From Jazzy@yabbs Tue Aug 23 09:14:19 1994 From: Jazzy@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: read /i roth Date: Tue Aug 23 09:14:19 1994 From 8charact@yabbs Wed Aug 24 16:22:39 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: Natalie@yabbs Subject: re: Religion and Existentialism Date: Wed Aug 24 16:22:39 1994 Natalie, These Christian existentialists do (emphasis) believe in a divine presence, but also give humans great amounts of control over their lives. 8charact From 8charact@yabbs Wed Aug 24 16:31:18 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: Response to your question.. Date: Wed Aug 24 16:31:18 1994 My question would be..... What do you think of the situation on earth now? 8charact From 8charact@yabbs Wed Aug 24 16:33:55 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: Prayer Date: Wed Aug 24 16:33:55 1994 Dee, I think prayer is relationship with God.... I think prayer is awareness of God in one's life... I think prayer is attempting to become God-like (in a Biblical sense; not become God) 8charact From 8charact@yabbs Wed Aug 24 16:37:23 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: Worship and faith Date: Wed Aug 24 16:37:23 1994 Dee, Faith to me is something I live daily (I think) in all that I say, do think and feel. ] Worship is one means that I use to maitain my relationship with God and the people of God. It helps me to encounter the divine presence of our Supreme Creator 8charact From 8charact@yabbs Wed Aug 24 16:41:46 1994 From: 8charact@yabbs To: sienna@yabbs Subject: re: A question I have Date: Wed Aug 24 16:41:46 1994 Dee, Hope all is well. What is God's will? It is simple I think.... Love God and love others. That's basically it. I can't think of an easier (maybe unsatisfactory answer) answer. I know it probablyt won't help, but it is the root of my faith. 8charact From Pele@yabbs Wed Aug 24 22:37:05 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: 8charact@yabbs Subject: re: A question I have Date: Wed Aug 24 22:37:05 1994 I couldn't have said it better myself ( Believe me! ) From Pele@yabbs Sun Aug 28 03:54:03 1994 From: Pele@yabbs To: all@yabbs Subject: RBase..no more Date: Sun Aug 28 03:54:03 1994 It seems to me that at this serene time, when yabbs faces certain doom, we should all be flourishing on this base, prayin to whatever Gods we hold dear to our hearts in the hops that something can be done! :) My 2/10 of a dollar :) -Pele- From balistic@yabbs Mon Aug 29 13:15:26 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re:god's sense o' humor Date: Mon Aug 29 13:15:26 1994 Okay...a nun, a priest, and a minister walk into a bar...:) balistic the silly From Typhon@yabbs Mon Aug 29 14:48:17 1994 From: Typhon@yabbs To: balistic@yabbs Subject: re: re:god's sense o' humor Date: Mon Aug 29 14:48:17 1994 "I just think that God finds me Incredibly Fucking funny." ---Dennis Miller "God, Take it easy on Harry....He beielves in you." ---George Carlin From balistic@yabbs Tue Aug 30 17:09:15 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: Typhon@yabbs Subject: re: re:god's sense o' humor Date: Tue Aug 30 17:09:15 1994 hehheh "Toss the holy hand grenade!!!" :) balistic From alarm@yabbs Tue Aug 30 21:44:03 1994 From: alarm@yabbs To: balistic@yabbs Subject: re: re:god's sense o' humor Date: Tue Aug 30 21:44:03 1994 Jesus says that if someone wants to sue you for the garment that you wear next to your body then you are to give him your outer garment also. This sounds like someone is going to be standing in court naked. I think it sounds hilarious. :) alarm From Typhon@yabbs Wed Aug 31 11:32:29 1994 From: Typhon@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: re:god's sense o' humor Date: Wed Aug 31 11:32:29 1994 "There's a dead bishop on the landing!" "Where's he from?" "Eh?" What's his Diocese!?" "Well, he looked a little Bath's an Wellsish to me..." Monty Python "Let teh Heathen spill theirs On the dusty ground God will make them pay for Each sperm that can't be forund." Also Monty Python "Jesus, Charles Darwin. Darwin, Jesus." "Oh. Mr Darwin, I read your book.." "Yes, my savior?" "You WERE Kidding, Right?" The Kids in the Hall God makes the Snake: "This is EASY!" Image of him rollin clay in his palms --Gary Larson, The Far Side Typhon the Irreverent From balistic@yabbs Wed Aug 31 15:56:25 1994 From: balistic@yabbs To: alarm@yabbs Subject: re: re:god's sense o' humor Date: Wed Aug 31 15:56:25 1994 holy pituitaries batman! :) balistic