From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: RAVEN Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/28/90 11:09:34 Message Number 6901 Do not use credit cards as such. I use them for id if I have to I do not suggest that anyone use them. I have read 1984 and believe that big brother could use the records to make a profile I did it once to see if it could be done. It can. IU learned more about a friend than I wanted to know. I feel sorry for him so I am loyal to him when what he did really turns me off. I am trying to say that normally I would run with all my might away from a dude who did what he did but because I know his secrete I will remain loyal. How do you like that for a strange action? =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/28/90 11:18:33 Message Number 6902 Not sure what second guess distressed mother means. Maybe you got the me mixed up. There is no carriage return. I type and the message does not wrap around. I do not watch the screen as I type as the monitor sit to high. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 07/28/90 11:22:24 Message Number 6903 Religion ius the opiate of the people is the beginning line of a document that we had to read in philosophy class. I was a conservative and didn't like the statement. Now that the train or beliefs of different cultures has been taught to me I can see why the dude made the comment. He was observing from outside looking in. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 07/28/90 11:25:55 Message Number 6904 Now I am a dude looking from the inside out to where Mr. Marx came from I can not disagree with him but I can say his social idease are not the best. Current events are proving me true. Socialism is a step in democracy just as democracy is a step in socialis We studied both in class and the need for both is quite aparent I need to know if you were ever married to go further in our discussion. I am going to discuss phila and agape and I need to know your experience with these terms. If you do not know that they mean I will ex explain in a closed letter than carry on with this conversation. If we a are not on the same wave length a dude or dudette will really read somet something strange into our letters. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: TURTLE Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/28/90 11:42:43 Message Number 6905 In response: I was refering to Plato. The philosophy I was talking about is the basis for the Catholic religion. You see those year at... have paid off. SDef Leppard is a strange name is it a sect or a rock group? Plato was no bore His perfect world is coming into florition today in America if I am not mistakes. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: JONBOY Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 07/28/90 11:58:31 Message Number 6906 Confused by statement Non-sequitor or rather the word. What meaning does the word have for you? =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: JONBOY Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/28/90 12:01:40 Message Number 6907 Jon Smith please accept my appologies. I read another closed board Then I read your comment. I got the wrong idea Sorry. I will erase my letter. Please try the other board out I believe that yo you will like it. We have been discussing relationships and philosophy Heavy Huh! =========== From: MAX To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/28/90 12:49:56 Message Number 6908 You are the most singularly cryptic person I've ever seen on a BBS... > ...I learned more about a friend than I wanted to know. I feel sorry > for him so I am loyal to him when what he did really turns me off. I > am trying to say that normally I would run with all my might away from > a dude who did what he did but because I know his secrete I will > remain loyal. The only logical response is, "huh?" If it's a secret and you're really not intending to talk about it in any depth, then why bring it up? If it's something that would normally make you stop associating with the person why is the fact that you know about it enough to make you keep associating with him? Regardless of whether or not the "secret" is sufficient grounds to stop associating with him, there appears to be a fundamental contradiction up there somewhere...? =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: THRUD Subject: PCP Users? Date & Time: 07/28/90 15:58:46 Message Number 6910 I'm an AT, and I get a little annoyed every once in a while with Turtle! I wouldn't make fun of your XT....and I'll have to say that Turtle's LISA really has no purpose in life! QED.... The Lady =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: JONBOY Subject: Ziggy Date & Time: 07/28/90 16:06:32 Message Number 6911 :) I have the CHANGES CD by Bowie....I still have my LP's though....I really miss the vinyl stuff. The cover art was the greatest. Can't fit that much on a CD. The LAdy =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: JONBOY Subject: ...Earth Callin Date & Time: 07/28/90 16:10:14 Message Number 6912 Earth Callin you! It's been that long..... The Lady In Black =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: JONBOY Subject: Earth? Date & Time: 07/28/90 16:12:04 Message Number 6913 I'm back...where are you? I could ask the same of the Yngling... The Lady =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: TURTLE Subject: Earth? Date & Time: 07/28/90 16:14:58 Message Number 6914 You are really gonna get hell when I see you next for that remark. =========== From: ANGEL To: BEATLE Subject: things... Date & Time: 07/28/90 20:56:23 Message Number 6915 Caught in the act! Yep, I picked a random number. Did I at least get the title of the Star Trek episode right? =========== From: ANGEL To: JONBOY Subject: definition Date & Time: 07/28/90 21:06:54 Message Number 6916 >...classed as "cults" by "mainstream" Christians... They teach things >that cannot be backed up in the Bible" No, these groups back-up their beliefs by scripture, the same scripture you use. If you want a whole new perspective on the Good Book, next time invite one of the Jehovah Witnesses inside when next one knocks at your door. What you term "mainstream" Christian sects consider them "cults", only because they disagree with the "mainstream" interpretation of scripture. And I also question your use of the word "mainstream". My own church does not consider the two groups I mentioned (JWs and Seventh Day Adventists) to be "cults", just two seperate approaches to God. But then, again, perhaps you consider the Episcopal Church to be a cult as well. =========== From: ANGEL To: JONBOY Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/28/90 21:27:03 Message Number 6917 If you're talking about Steve Geden, then yes, I know him. We used to work together. How did you run in to him? =========== From: ANGEL To: JONBOY Subject: Devil & Billy M Date & Time: 07/28/90 21:30:06 Message Number 6918 > He would say that harp playing gets boring quick..." Harp playing boring!!!!!!!! Philistine. Blasphemy. No appreciation for good music. On another line, did you hear about the elderly couple that died and went to heaven. They found it a most enjoyable place, even better than they had been led to believe. The wife exclaimed joyously at their new-found happiness in eternity. And the husband replied, "Yeah, and if it wasn't for you and your damn bran muffins we could have been here years earlier." =========== From: ANGEL To: JONBOY Subject: Truth Date & Time: 07/28/90 21:37:20 Message Number 6919 >Can you see generations of people suffereing great hardships and >persecution for the sake of a charlatan? Humanity has a great penchant for suffering and persecution in the fulfillment of what they believe ... whether we judge it to be "truth" or charlatanism (is that a word). ie., the followers of Hitler, John Smith, Stalin, Quakers, the Ayatollah, Ghandi, Odin, etc. >Can you see ordinary people with nothing to gain personally dying for >this sort of system? But the Christians believe they are dieing to achieve life immortal, that's a rather high personal gain. What are you trying to prove? =========== From: NAME To: TURTLE Subject: Truth Date & Time: 07/28/90 22:30:28 Message Number 6920 The Bible was not written for outsiders. (Excluding the message of salvation.) Taking this into consideration, if you have not been born again, as the bible puts it in John 3, "Being born of the water and of the spirit." If your spirit has not been born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God. Seeing is understanding. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the things not seen. It kinda works like this: you get a new spirit that has faith toward God. And, a new spirit that understands (or sees) God. I don't expect anyone who has not been born again to understand (or see) God. Let's take truth, for a minute. I'm glad that you don't just accept the Bible to be truth based on the fact that it says it's truth. Truth will prove itself. Jesus was truth, a a pretty nice guy, too. You don't have to believe that the bible is truth, to find some helpful guidelines for life. (Not to steal, cheat or lie.) =========== From: NAME To: TURTLE Subject: Bible Date & Time: 07/28/90 22:58:34 Message Number 6921 N>>[The Bible] is where we get the tenet of Trinity from. N>> T>So are you a monotheist or polytheist? T> I am a monotheist. =========== From: NAME To: MAX Subject: definitions Date & Time: 07/28/90 23:05:07 Message Number 6922 I must be stupid, because I didn't understand anything you said. Please respond in layman's terms next time. ("Fundamental law of the Universe"?) I don't know what this is. I'm not sure, but I THINK you don't believe the Bible to be truth. If not, what part don't you believe? Maybe I can help. God put Adam and Eve in the garden, not Adam and Steve. =========== From: ANGEL To: *.* Subject: boom! Date & Time: 07/28/90 23:20:49 Message Number 6923 The Giant's mention of gold definitely caught Angel's interest. "Ah, I appreciate the fine offer of assistance in outfitting my ship. Fortunately, I now have the means to handle such provisioning myself. But I fear the Fjord you mention is not to be found on this world. And my ship is bound by the winds and tides of this place. I cannot bring you home. But I've need of a crew and if you -- " Angel's speech ended in a strange word that sounded oddly like "ARGHOUUMPHH!" as she was knocked from her feet by the blast that destroyed Rufus' briefcase. "What was that?" she exclaimed as she struggled to rise from the floor. She left further questioning to others as she suddenly noticed her cape was aflame. Tossing it to the floor, she started jumping up and down on the burning cloth, in a rather credible imitation of Turtle at his most agitated. "Well, that's 20 credits shot to hell. Now, what is happening and ... NO!" "Hey, Angel, did you know ---" Turtle tried to get her attention, but her interests lay elsewhere at the moment. The ex-harper rushed to the piano in the corner of the bar. "Angel, you really ought to --" Turtle tried again to no avail. Passing the Giant, she grabbed the mug of Sliva from his hand and tossed the drink at the smoking hole in the center of the instrument. Unfortunately, the potent drink merely burst into flames. Going back for the trodden cape, she used it to beat out the fire in the piano. "Bloody 'ell! What is it wi' this place and musical instruments. Wonder if this can be fixed, or if'n I'll need another burial." "Angel!" If nothing else, Turtle was at least persistant. "Stop running around Angel. Did you know you're bleeding?" Rather surprised, she glanced down at her left shoulder and was amazed to see blood swelling from beneath a tear in her garment. "Oh, well, now that you mention it ... Nothing to worry about." =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: TURTLE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 07/29/90 00:04:33 Message Number 6924 >morality.....prejudice......bigotry.... Hey, I don't mean to bump my way into this, but a freind of mine at work just relayed a story to me of her brother in California about a month ago. It appears this gay (homosexual...whatever) guy was admitted into his emergency room with terrible stomache pain and intestinal bleeding. After operating on him, a small white mouse was removed from his main body cavity and the guy almost died. Turns out, this is the new 'fad' for gays out west.....take a small (alive) white mouse, grease him up, roll him in coke and shove him us your ass. Only this guys mouse chewed his way into the guy's gut (good for the mouse). Now in the context of your conversation, was this guy (these guys) perverse, or perversed homosexuals (implying 'normal' homosexuals)? SICK-SICK-SICK-SICK-SICK-SICK-SICK-SICK.....say what you will, but you won't change my opinion!!!!!!!! a ssssssssssssssssick ssssssssSNAKEBYTE . . =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: TURTLE Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 07/29/90 00:15:27 Message Number 6925 >evidence to support judgement of homosexuality.... Let's see, I don't 'think' (implying opinion) that sex with animals (assuming consenting animals) is 'normal'. If an adult con's a child to have sex with them, does that make the child 'consenting'? If not, is that just your 'opinion'? In any case, I do not 'think' this is 'normal' either (consenting or not). I also don't think that sex with small appliances is 'normal' either (even consenting appliances). I also do not think that sex between consenting adults of the same sex is 'normal' (especially males...ooops, nail me for that comment!!!). I'd just assume stick it in a blender then in an orifice that was meant to pass human excrement (only). Why???? Well hell, I don't find ANY men sexually attractive (and a lot of women around aren't too attractive either).....tah-dah!!!! My opinion!!!!! I think I'm entitled to it, and I'm entitled to profess it. Beastiality is NOT WRONG because I think it is. There are things that are naturally unnatural (or should I say, unacceptable by human standards). If everyone can do as they please as long as it doesn;t 'bother' anyone else....you MUST define 'bother'. Oh yeah, If a gay guy is looking at YOU with 'that' look in his eyes , are YOU uncomfortable????? Or do you feel GOOD that he finds YOU sexually attractive??????? ......well?????? =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: BEATLE Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/29/90 00:31:09 Message Number 6926 > medical proof that homosexuality is in fact a sickness..... Come on Beatle.....you tellin' me that YOU (or anyone) can PROVE medically that rapists, child abusers, beastiality practicioners, theives, muggers, murderers, or any of the such are MEDICALLY SICK???? I guess its' also 'normal' in some books for homosexuals to get sex change operations. Would YOU feel comfortable with an ex-male date?? Why not??????? Would it be 'normal' for a practicioner of beastiality to get a transplant of a cow's penis to satisfy his desire to be with his favorite heffer??? ....think about it....... =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: AJ-- Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/29/90 00:37:46 Message Number 6927 A CHOICE??????? Where's that 'medical' background???? I think you would quickly find the definition of a 'woman trapped in a man's body' or a overwhelming desire to displace one's mother rapidly surfacing. The people do NOT profess a CHOICE. In fact, they will SWEAR that they have NO choice. Is the overwhlming desire to have sex with small children (perhaps yours) a 'choice'??? Is the desire to have sex with a dog, sheep or cow a 'normal' choice????? Is the desire to rape a seventy year old retired lady in her apartment a 'normal' choice???? In your extensive 'medical background', how many rapists (of man or beast), homosexuals, child abusers or whatever told you, "Yeah, welp I could've gone to McDonalds for a burger, but I desided to rape a 3 year old instead". And YOU'RE telling us that this was a choice made with NO sickness involved?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Geeeezzzzz =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: RAVEN Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/29/90 00:47:14 Message Number 6928 >if rate of occurance is the indicator.... Well, where does that leave the Pope??? The President???? Extremely intellegent people???? Rocket scientists?????? hmmmmm, sickness?? ....nawwww, junk the 'rate of occurance' crap..... =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: V Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 07/29/90 00:50:43 Message Number 6929 >Hey, it all boils down to X. vs. Y. One 'what' is only 95% male???? It boils down to AC. vs DC.!!! Oh yeah, male is defined as the sex of a species that produces sperm (or motile gametes or some type), while female refers to the one that bears young or produces eggs. While masculine and femanine refer to characterists of each. Maybe one is 95% masculine, but one is definitely 100% male!!!!! Oh yeah, 'opposite' inferrs diametrically different things, so if males and females are 'opposite' sexes, then they would HAVE to be totally different from one another to satisfy your statement. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .huh????? =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: MAX Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/29/90 01:00:24 Message Number 6930 >I find discrimination to be as morally repugnant as you apparently >find homosexuality to be. Discriminating is only noticing a diffence between two things. How you 'act' upon it is another subject (like prejudice, perhaps). If you act against (or oppose) based on a discriminating and prejudice opinion, then yes, that is baddddddd. But, that would make you prejudice against prejudice people, making you prejudice against yourself....aha!!!! Yup, you've got yourself by the short hairs..... oooops.... =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: TURTLE Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 07/29/90 01:05:55 Message Number 6931 > grammar....., I had terrible English instructors, but I did have enough sense to buy a decent dictionary...... =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: hi Date & Time: 07/29/90 01:17:29 Message Number 6932 Missed you around. Hope all's well....... .\ /. \_____/ \_/ | /\ see ya' Lady. =========== From: AJ-- To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Association Date & Time: 07/29/90 08:36:54 Message Number 6933 I read your reply, and I agree with you that these unfortunate crimes do happen in our society....I will correct a couple of facts for you though, whereas not to misleed or give only a one sided conversation. It is true that Rape, Incest,Child Abusers,and having sex with animals DOES happen in the world today that we live in...however your facts make direction towards Homosexuals, with the feeling and asumption that all Homosexuals are the ones doing all these crimes....I beg to difer with you....if you would like check with the local NAACP and the GALA and ACLU and Sheriffs Association for "statistics" on rates and race of a majority of the crimes that you mentioned....I wish I could help you better understand us as "Homosexuals"..but I can tell from your creative writting that it would be useless....for that I am sorry. Some people in the world today cant grasp the fact that Hetrosexuals, Black Men and Women, Teenagers, and YES Homosexuals are all aty fault and should have fingers pointed to them for the awwwful crimes that they commit. I am one who refuses to single out a "classification of ones sexual desires" to ease my conscience whereas not to have to deal with the real world. I enjoy these comments, and welcome with open arms more...helping describe, as you call it "this sickness" has been in the same direction as my career for the past eight years. TopGun Strikes Again..... Sysop Of ALTnet BBS =========== From: AJ-- To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Normal Date & Time: 07/29/90 08:50:15 Message Number 6934 There where too many "normals" in that last letter, why not use the term, "socially acceptable" or "Homophopbically reconized"..this I feel is a better definition, because who is to deictate or define "normal"?? TopGun Strikes Again..... Sysop Of ALTnet BBS =========== From: RAVEN To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/29/90 10:45:18 Message Number 6935 >How do you like that for a strange action? Just the only honorable course that could be taken, as the information was discovered in a moderately dishonorable (if unintended) manner. The social security number is equally revealing, as it links all education, medical, employment, and credit records under one id number, but like cc#s this info. is generally misused. Of late I have thought about running a security check on myself (about $35) just to see how accurate the info. is. =========== From: RAVEN To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 07/29/90 10:59:03 Message Number 6936 >was this guy (these guys) perverse,... Just as perverse as any entity that takes pleasure from causing the demise of, or injury to, another intelligent being. Incidentally I first heard of this fad about 5 years ago, and find it as repulsive now as I did then. Harming another creature solely for the thrill of it is not moral, and such actions should be condemned. =========== From: RAVEN To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/29/90 11:09:11 Message Number 6937 >Well, where does that leave the Pope??? The President???? Extremely >intellegent people???? Rocket scientists?????? hmmmmm, sickness?? Please elaborate, as your response is not clear. >....nawwww, junk the 'rate of occurance' crap..... The Specialist was using the morality of the public at large to justify his claim that homosexuality is morally wrong. I was merely pointing out that the 'moral' practice of monogamy is not the general norm. =========== From: DONTHEN To: ALL Subject: The Above Date & Time: 07/29/90 12:57:00 Message Number 6938 "What the hell--?" Wezip lets go of Xon's shirt at the sound of the explosion. "Funny, just what I was going to ask you," Xon says crossly. "Oh. Right. Well, I need to get you to do a favor for me." The fox absently watches the tribble pop out from behind where Bongo- Man threw it. Cute little whatsit. It promptly falls onto the floor and out of sight. "Tell me about it in a minute," Xon says, crossing over to where Rufus is standing. --- "I saw, I saw," Mulligan says in response to Turtle. He says this at the same time he's dashing out of his seat and racing for the door; he gets there and stops, apparently determining that the assassin is too far away already to be pursuable. He then heads back to Rufus, ignoring the reptile. "You have any idea why someone would be trying to kill you?" His expression is a little skeptical, somehow suggesting that he over- heard Rufus' explanation of a few moments ago. --- "I have these houseguests coming," Wezip mumbles to the air where Xonzoff had been standing. Then he thrusts his hands in his pockets, sighs melodramatically and heads toward Angel and the piano. His expression changes to one of dismay when he sees Angel is bleeding, and the thought of his impending houseguests is temporarily driven out of mind. "That doesn't look like 'nothing to worry about,'" he says reproachfully. He looks over at the bar as if hoping a bandage will appear magically; Xonzoff is digging around behind it, perhaps looking for the fox's theoretical first aid kit. =========== From: MAX To: NAME Subject: definitions Date & Time: 07/29/90 13:10:02 Message Number 6939 > I'm not sure, but I THINK you don't believe the Bible to be truth. If you mean that I don't believe it to be the infallible, literal Word of God, you're absolutely right. Your comment that the Bible was not meant for "outsiders" is incomprehensible on the surface, by the way; if all humans are meant to be saved through Christ, then none of them should be "outsiders". > If not, what part don't you believe? Maybe I can help. Help with what? If you mean convincing me that it's the literal word of God, or even convincing me that a 'supreme being' would incarnate himself as a human being and allow himself to be killed on the grounds that doing so would absolve all humanity of their sins if only they took the leap of faith necessary to accept the premise of this sentence, then you may have a tough time of it. My ultimate objection to the philosophy of Christianity, apart from the practice, is that this just doesn't make any SENSE philosophically. (I won't even get into my objections to the ACTIONS of Christians in the name of their divine scapegoat.) > God put Adam and Eve in the garden, not Adam and Steve. Is there a point to this observation? =========== From: MAX To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 07/29/90 13:16:10 Message Number 6940 That fad is a homosexual variant of one that heterosexual females have been doing, too. Yes, it's perverse, but it's equally perverse whether the person doing it is straight, gay, or bisexual, isn't it? If bringing this up is meant to suggest that all homosexuals are 'perverse' in this fashion because of this fad, then logically all heterosexuals are perverse because some of them do it, too. Yes, it's sick. My point is, again, that what you describe has a victim -- in this case, the mouse. If you take what most people would consider a normal heterosexual relationship and do not change it in any way other than flipping the sex of one of the people involved, you haven't made it into a stinking morass of child molesting, animal-raping human slime. At any rate, there is NO EVIDENCE to support that a homosexual or bisexual individual is more predisposed to molesting children, raping other individuals, or, yes, sticking small furry animals in body cavities than a heterosexual one is. There is, indeed, evidence to support that homo/bi people are likely to be more promiscuous than heteros. I consider this unfortunate at best (and dangerous at worst), but my moral judgment on the matter comes from the promiscuity, not the sexual orientation. =========== From: MAX To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/29/90 13:24:58 Message Number 6941 > But that would make you prejudice against prejudice people, making you > prejudice against yourself... This is, in the words of the Specialist, manifest bullshit. In point of fact, I didn't say I discriminated against people who discriminate; I just disagree with them. I've known the Specialist for about two years and have known his intense hatred of homosexuality for almost that long; I don't agree with his opinion, he doesn't agree with mine, but that doesn't mean we've stopped associating with each other or respecting the other one's opinion & judgments (even - gasp! - when there's a disagreement). It sounds to me like you think I can't be prejudiced against anyone else who's prejudiced, because then I would be prejudiced against myself. By this logic, I must have to agree with everyone who says things I don't agree with. This doesn't work to begin with. And if you think I have no grounds for "discriminating" against members of the American Nazi party or the KKK, you are the one who needs to re-examine your thinking -- not me. =========== From: ANGEL To: *.* Subject: rip Date & Time: 07/29/90 14:28:57 Message Number 6942 "Really, I'm fine. Don't worry about it." But Wezip ignored Angel's remarks. The fox took the first aid kit that Xon finally discovered behind the bar. "Angel, be quiet, let me take care of you." "You don't have to -- Hey, don't! ... Too late." Angel was unable to stop Wezip as he took hands to the small tear on her blouse and ripped it wide open to get a closer look at the wound. "It's not just musical instruments, you guys are tough on clothing, too." Cleaning the blood from the wound, Wezip had to agree that it really was a minor injury. There was a gash in the upper arm about three inches long, but very shallow, with no major blood vessels torn. No longer concerned about her safety, he was more disturbed by the action of the wound. It seemed as if the wound was repairing itself before his eyes. Very slowly, the sides of the open cut seemed to move closer together, trying to make whole the damage. Looking up at her face, for the first time he noticed there was no trace of the cut there that she had received the night before. "I thought you knew no magic," Wezip said. "It's not magic. It's just me. How do you think I've lived all these centuries?" "All these centuries?" asked Sam. "Strange, you don't look a day over one hundred." Sam seemed undamaged by the explosion, a situation Angel considered rectifying. Fortunately for the little ragamuffin, Wezip stood between Angel and _her_. "So, Wezip, you're having visitors? How nice. And how many ladies will there be?" =========== From: TURTLE To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/29/90 19:57:16 Message Number 6944 >I was referring to Plato. I know. >The philosophy I was talking about was the basis for the Catholic >religion. In what way? Last I heard, Christianity wasn't too fond of the teachings of the pagan Greeks, particularly not Catholicism. Def Leppard is the name of a rock group. =========== From: TURTLE To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: Earth. Date & Time: 07/29/90 20:01:06 Message Number 6945 >You are really gonna get hell when I se you next for that remark. Promises, promises. I shall await with utmost fascination to see what kind of hell you're going to give me. =========== From: TURTLE To: ANGEL Subject: definition Date & Time: 07/29/90 20:02:59 Message Number 6946 >If you want a whole new perspective on the Good Book... ...and a decidedly strange one. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a remarkable bunch when it comes to the art of creative interpretation. =========== From: TURTLE To: NAME Subject: Truth Date & Time: 07/29/90 20:09:16 Message Number 6947 >The Bible was not written for outsiders. Really? I find it hard to believe that the sole purpose of the Bible is to preach to the convinced. I'm fascinated by your assertion that the only way to become convinced of the authenticity of Christianity is to become a Christian--that is, to be convinced of the authenticity of Christianity. Unfortunately, I've heard the line before--"you won't understand until you become one of us." That's a really popular line of reasoning that's been used to support a number of rather ghastly institutions. In any event, your reasoning isn't going to impress anyone who's not a Christian already (someone who is will, presumably, nod sagely); if there is, in fact, no way for a non-Christian to believe in the tenants of Christianity, then it's going to be pretty hard for Christianity to spread, isn't it? It also has no bearing on the truth of the Christian tenants; to say that you can only understand them if you believe is rather like saying "only a believer believes this." Yes, that's true, but I hardly think the assertion that only one who believes in Christianity can truly under- stand it is the best argument in favor of Christianity I've ever heard. >Jesus was Truth, ... How do you know? =========== From: TURTLE To: NAME Subject: Bible Date & Time: 07/29/90 20:17:46 Message Number 6948 >I am a monotheist. The Trinity is composed of three parts; otherwise, it wouldn't be a Trinity. A monotheist worships a singular god. A triunal god is not a singular god by definition. "Christian theologians can prove that Christianity is a monotheistic religion, but it takes some fancy footwork." --Dr. Lee Snyder, Professor of Islamic Studies. =========== From: TURTLE To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 07/29/90 20:21:42 Message Number 6949 I would say that using a living organism as a sex toy, in a process is likely to kill the organism, is animal abuse, which is immoral regardless of the sexual orientation of the person performing the act. It also has nothing whatever to do with the morality of homosexuality. (If you're really interested, I've heard of this practice before. It's called "gerbiling," and it is /not/ limited to homosexuals. The process is almost invariably fatal to the animal in question. Yes, I consider that "sick." What's your point?) =========== From: TURTLE To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 07/29/90 20:24:49 Message Number 6950 >bestiality (assuming consenting animals)... By definition, a non-sapient animal can not give informed consent to anything. Bestiality is animal abuse. >sex with children (assuming consenting children)... Likewise. A six-year-old is not capable of giving "informed consent" to something of this nature, and in any event (1) most child molestors don't ask for permission first and (2) children are not physically developed to the point where they are capable of sexual behavior. Child molestation is a particularly savage form of rape. >What would you do if a man gave you "that look"... As long as that's /all/ he did, absolutely nothing. He's not affecting me in any way. My feelings would neither be good nor bad; I wouldn't waste my time worrying about it. I am secure enough in my own sexuality that it simply wouldn't bother me. On the other hand, I wouldn't /sleep/ with him, either. There is a difference between another person's thought and his action. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: TURTLE Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/29/90 20:55:24 Message Number 6951 Christians in this neck of the woods do not like to admit it but people up my way have no problem with admitting when ideas are borrowed. The religious ceremony that I attended this morning is a mixture of the Catholic and Episcopalian services. There was a priest doing the sacrements and a minister doing the preaching. I am a Congregationalist and several Jews were there. The service was a community event If you do not do the Euchorist(ms) you could obstain. I did and felt no harm as a result. My jewish friends sat out with me. My catholi buddy went forward. I did not feel sorry for him. He was worshiping the same God as I. He just did it differently. =========== From: ANGEL To: TURTLE Subject: definition Date & Time: 07/30/90 00:50:46 Message Number 6952 >...and a decidedly strange one. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a remark- >able bunch when it comes to the art of creative interpretation. Ah, strange and wondrous. Actually, from what I've read from their books, their unique interpretations, taken as a whole, hold up rather well without having to resort to a lot of "fill-in-the-gap" theology. Of course, the whole is a rather bizarre one, but quite logical within its own framework. =========== From: BEATLE To: AJ-- Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/30/90 01:40:51 Message Number 6953 >I< am not the one that considers homosexuality a "sickness". That user is The Specialist. /I/ was asking /him/ for evidence to support /his/ claim that homosexuality is a sickness. =========== From: BEATLE To: BIG LEW Subject: express Date & Time: 07/30/90 01:43:23 Message Number 6954 > Is this stuff for real...? Yep, as real as my hand. You can find it at any toy store. =========== From: BEATLE To: RAVEN Subject: express Date & Time: 07/30/90 01:45:32 Message Number 6955 > Sounds like the same slime that was marketed about 5 years ago... Okay, I must be insane, but you're wrong. I purchased some of the "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe" Slime-Pit Slime (I'm not making this up either!!) back then... The He-Man slime was thicker, attracted dirt,wasn't transparent, and didn't leave residue on your hands... The Turtles slime is transparent, stickier, thinner, and stays clean. Also, the He-Man slime stayed in it's original form (mostly)... it actually got HARDER the longer you had it, rather than liquifying.... =========== From: BEATLE To: TURTLE Subject: express Date & Time: 07/30/90 01:53:33 Message Number 6956 > ...how to make oobleck... Oooh, can I have some?!!? I like that idea! (Actually, tell me how to do it, and I'll see if I can do it in chemistry next year...) =========== From: BEATLE To: TURTLE Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 07/30/90 01:54:59 Message Number 6957 > ALWAYS anal retentive about grammar. And I agree fully. I don't mind if someone makes a common mistake that sounds fine (although it still IS wrong)... I hate things like "This IS the message bases".... =========== From: BEATLE To: JONBOY Subject: spam Date & Time: 07/30/90 02:00:20 Message Number 6958 > I thought that was spelled DILDO? Actually, I don't understand what that had to do with Spam, but it gives me the opportunity to share my favorite self-created childish acronym: O-rganization R-eading G-ood A-nd S-uper M-aterials I used this in a description of a text file I wrote, which ironically (come to think of it) was titled Spam... (!!!) Wow, weird how that happened... must be a psyhic occurance... from SPAM to DILDO to ORGASM to SPAM... that must qualify for />WEIRDNESS Conform! Conform! You can feel your brain turning into butter... What does it turn into if you DON'T conform?? By the way, your brain doesn't turn into butter, it turns into eggs... don't you remember the ad campaign?? I mean, "last time; any questions". How can you forget!! ;) =========== From: BEATLE To: TURTLE Subject: express Date & Time: 07/30/90 02:15:48 Message Number 6960 By the way, on the subject of oobleck... how do you get your hand OUT after it gets in there? Do you use a heat source to make the stuff turn to liquid and then pull your hand out? =========== From: BEATLE To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: Ziggy Date & Time: 07/30/90 02:21:20 Message Number 6961 > still have my LP's though... Me too, I'll have them forever, probably... > ...cover art was the greatest. Can't fit that much on a CD. Yeah, but it's millions of times better than a cassette!! I love looking at cassette insrts to see how they fit it all in... folding it as thick as the cassette itself is getting common.... =========== From: BEATLE To: ANGEL Subject: things... Date & Time: 07/30/90 02:27:05 Message Number 6962 > Did I at least get the title of the Star Trek episode right? Yep. What really nags me is the fact that I NOTICED the mistake... ooh ... I'm turning into a mindless blob of useless information!! Exactly why I want to own a video store or work for Universal Studios... they can probably put my useless facts to work. God knows I picked up more of them when I was there... =========== From: BEATLE To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 07/30/90 02:33:34 Message Number 6963 I think you might be stirring up more trouble than neccesary. You agree (as far as I see) with the idea that this is your OPINION, and not a fact. Max and Turtle have been getting onto the Specialist because he says that being gay is a sickness without facts. As you gave an example, I don't see how they could disagree with you. Granted, sticking a live mouse in your anal cavity is quite odd, but calling it sick can fall into the same category as telling someone that masturbation is self abuse and self polution... I got that definition from a dictionary. Not very descriptive of the act itself, is it... =========== From: BEATLE To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/30/90 02:43:36 Message Number 6964 > that would make you prejudice against prejudice people, making you > prejudice against yourself... Not neccesarily... the definition of prejudice is judging a group of people by a small number, such as saying that all blacks are stupid becuase you know two that are. Maxnever seemed to express a prejudice, just an opinion that he doesn't like the fact that they are prejudiced. You can't really apply the definition anyway, since he isn't judging a group that has members that are different. By saying "prejudiced people" , you are defining a group that has no subgroups of un-prejudiced people ... A term that would make more sense in your message would b "descrimination", but he doesn't descriminate against people either... =========== From: BEATLE To: ALL Subject: VH-1 Date & Time: 07/30/90 03:01:16 Message Number 6965 Well, VH1 had a "Blonde on Blonde" Sunday. Yep, 24 hours of Marilyn Monroe and Madonna! ARGH! Sounds like some sort of torture... Madonna actually had Marilyn outdone here, as VH1 has about 2 hours of Madonna programming, as opposed to 1/2 hour of Marilyn Monroe... and this goes on and on for 24 HOURS! You can always tape the "Papa Don't Preach" video and play it back in slow-motion to watch for the two split seconds where Madonna sort of "popped out" of her dress... yep, no joke, this was published in a magazine. One question about that video: Is that Danny Aiello playing Madonna's father?? =========== From: RUFUS To: BEATLE Subject: express Date & Time: 07/30/90 03:14:32 Message Number 6967 Well, to get free of oobleck, there are a few things you can do. 1)Chop your hand off. 2)Set your arm on fire, which should heat your hand up, melting the oobleck. 3)Get some 18 molar acid, pour it in the oobleck. It eats wood, eats flesh (my flesh to be exact), so I'm sure it would enjoy an oobleck hor de dorve, or is that horse douvers? =========== From: RUFUS To: BEATLE Subject: VH-1 Date & Time: 07/30/90 03:18:55 Message Number 6968 This Wednesday MTV is having 24 hours (yea, a whole day) of Madonna. 24 hours, as in none of their usual game shows and such. Ghods...I used to like MTV. Now it's...it's.....bleck. =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Heart Date & Time: 07/30/90 13:37:13 Message Number 6969 Answer me this: What exactly is normal? The Lady =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 07/30/90 13:53:06 Message Number 6970 The argument is biased. It is not fair for any one person to label a behavior "normal" or "abnormal"...there are types of behavior that we choose to accept and types that we choose not to accept...that does not necessarily make them "right" or "wrong". I choose to accept homosexual ity...I've been given no reason not to...it doesn't affect me in any negative way...I can go on having a heterosexual relationship without being offended or bothered by someones' homosexual relationship...it's simple...it's not my business. Who am I to tell a gay man that he has no right to sleep with another man...should he be allowed to tell me tha t I am not entitled to sleep with a man? NO. It's not his business. Morality is in the eye of the beholder...you make it what it is...I do not approve of rape or incest, but that is for an obvious reason...it is a forced behavior...We live in America...what happened to freedom of speech? What happened to a persons right to privacy? WE are all so busy trying to impose morality on people that we've actually become completely immoral. Freud would love to see how the chain of messages on this BBS has developed...I think it's kinda sad...I find it amusing to see how someone can call a person a nasty name and not expect to get labeled...after all, haven't you just labeled someone yourself... What happened to mature adults? Don't they exist anymore? Isn't anyone capable of debating an issue without dragging morality into it? HMPH! I guess I'll warp back into the 40's.... The Lady =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: hi Date & Time: 07/30/90 14:04:28 Message Number 6971 Could say the same to you...what's new and exciting? The Lady =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: TURTLE Subject: Earth. Date & Time: 07/30/90 14:09:45 Message Number 6972 :> A deserving hell thou shall recieve....maybe I'll subject you to my debate over a homosexual's rights....they do have rights, y'know? The lady] =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: BEATLE Subject: Ziggy Date & Time: 07/30/90 14:14:30 Message Number 6973 Album art can never be matched, though.... :) =========== From: BEATLE To: RUFUS Subject: VH-1 Date & Time: 07/30/90 17:13:43 Message Number 6975 > none of their usual game shows and such. Which means no "Just Say Julie"!!! And that show is getting funnier, too... Ugghhh... =========== From: BEATLE To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 07/30/90 17:16:51 Message Number 6976 >...rape or incest...forced... Incest isn't always forced, but it's still in a similar category... =========== From: BIG LEW To: NAME Subject: TRUTH Date & Time: 07/30/90 17:37:07 Message Number 6977 I like the way you put this message. Nobody has ever said it quite like that to me and although, I am born again and DO believe in everlasting life, reading your message gave me a good feeling. I think people are afraid to read the Bible, but they read everything else to improve their lives (I mean TRY to improve their lives). The ten commandments would keep the world in line, if we would all live by them. Enjoy your views a lot. Thanks. =========== From: BIG LEW To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 07/30/90 17:42:45 Message Number 6978 What a sicko! Is this story for real? Maybe the "guy" should have died Who knows what he'll put up it next and for what purpose? I honestly cannot believe that this is for real- mind you, I'm not questioning you, you're only relaying what was told to you. I am quite conservative, I guess, but this is just not "normal"; in fact, homosexuality is not normal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:01:51 Message Number 6979 Hold on, hooooollldd on - whoa I say! Lemmee do some more in depth research - I got kinda sidetracked on some neat stuff in Isaiah but I'm still trying to find some stuff out about it. For now - it appears that you are correct in a couple of respects. I'm tracking down and rounding up a few thinks in Luke that seems to agree with what you maintain with it not being intended as a place of punishment. There are a few anomolies that I would like to clear up about references in the OT where contrary (?) to a staement you made, Sheol is mentioned several times - HOWEVER - it is rendered as "the grave" for some arcane reason I am trying to fathom by the translators. It seems to be one of those things that the intent is modified by the context and not due to any desire on the part of the translators to map the text into an existing theology. I must say thanks for a rewarding line of research! Question: how, if any, would a revelation that God doesn't keep a personal torture chamber affect your perceptions? I really get the impression that the objection to hell was a sideline to the real issue of a decided non-belief in a creator. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:10:24 Message Number 6980 Huh? Waitadamminite! It was quite ok for YOU to assume a passage thru terra-non-firma. Assume therefor a black hole or some other mass that is capable of exerting a gravitational attraction upon the ball. Assume also a passing trajectory that causes the ball to become entrappe by the gravitational field. Air resistance et al has nothing to do with a decaying orbit from the rsults of insufficient escape velocity. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Truth Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:13:38 Message Number 6981 I believe B.Dalton has it in the philosophy section. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Caves of... Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:14:48 Message Number 6982 No no, I read Phaeto long ago and the cave analogy etc - I was trying to figure out what in the devil HE was referring to in that context - I got lost somewhere. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:16:12 Message Number 6983 That's dumb! =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: express Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:17:16 Message Number 6984 And then if you piss them off (not *too* hard) they will clam up and imitate normal mossy-looking stuff complete with spore pods and filaments. I used to get filthy in the woods in Alabama looking for various worts and other fungi.. sigh* those were fun days! =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:19:42 Message Number 6985 'Tis true I admit - but I was told by the honorable perfessors that they prefer to cling to a faulty model rather than none at all! Truth is - they just have not one clue and piss-poor correlation between the things that would "normally" be suspect in such cases; ie hormones, chemical imbalances, genetics.... It's kind of like the state of physics - they have a lot of macromodels that make sense in their own context - now to make 'em fit the larger scheme of things. =========== From: JONBOY To: AJ-- Subject: Shrink Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:23:16 Message Number 6986 Silly me to pass on such an obvious answer! =========== From: JONBOY To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:26:20 Message Number 6987 It means - "it does not follow" and is a term used when somebody says something that is unrelated (or not obvious) to the current idea of discussion. Like we are talking about roses and their propagation and you pipe up with "my mother-in-law has a really nasty wart on her chin with a hair in it..." =========== From: JONBOY To: MAX Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:29:39 Message Number 6988 >fundamental contradiction up there somewhere...? Where's that? =========== From: JONBOY To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: Ziggy Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:31:19 Message Number 6989 Sighhh - I know. Those itty bitty damned CD covers that snap off my ex got paint all over the Ziggy cover and LP but I still keep it for a reminder of a very good period of my life... I used to buy LP's just for thwe cover art - y'know? I was seldom disappointed! Seems the more effort that went into the cover was worth the effort. There have even been a few controversial ones - remember the Blind Faith albumn cover? What a scandal - now you can see the origianal on the CD version and it's no big deal. I have been looking since the early 70's for a couple of albumns by an african group called OSIBISA which they said was a word that described (eddie murphey "Coming to America" voice) "Criss-cross rhythmns of flowing music..." The albumn covers were done ala' YES with elephants that were flying with dragonfly wings - simply beautiful! Someone liberated my copies *sob*! Anyway - glad to see you back - I wondered what became of you and Turtle specified that your 'puter was giving you grief. We're still supposed to do tacos some night... =========== From: JONBOY To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: ...Earth Callin Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:38:47 Message Number 6990 ****** Hi Babe! ******** Krrrrrrcchhhhhhh! JonBoy out... =========== From: JONBOY To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: Earth? Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:39:25 Message Number 6991 Yngling is in the process of becoming disgustingly domesticated! I mean that house has actually yard-trained him already! Imagine! My neighbors finally came over and wanted to know when I was gonna cut my lawn - said "glad you volunteered!". He only charged me $15 which suits me just fine! Leaves me time to ride my bike, program the ol AT, and play lots of guitar - Ahhhh! The single life! =========== From: JONBOY To: ANGEL Subject: definition Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:42:53 Message Number 6992 I'm not gonna nibble - Episcopals have a lot in common with the RC church whatever your group wants to call them is fine by me but I will stand by my statement. They in fact ALL purport to have obtained "special" revelations that supercede the Bible. The Mormons even have their own books that supposedly chronicle the ministry of Jesus here in the New World - calling the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price biblical books is stretching it. The Seventh Day Adventists assert that everyone is wrong (pretty stridently I might add) because by George, if God wanted to worshipped on Sunday He would have said so! As it is - your worship is invalid and unrecognized in the eyes of God because it doesn't fall on His holy day which any idiot knows the Catholic Bishop whatshisname screwed up when his calculator fritzed during some right ascension calculations necessitating some rough figures and he slipped by a whole day - the Jews still have it right! Sorry - these people are guilty of what everyone tries to accuse "mainstream" Christians of - accusing everyone of being apostate and they are the true "keepers of the flame". MAybe its these people that are causing ALL the ruckus and sharing the blame? =========== From: JONBOY To: ANGEL Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:51:20 Message Number 6993 Small world - I work VERY closely with Steve. He is bucking for a job as top computer systems weinie at Hi-Stat as it is he is a middle level manager and maintains the LAN and carries the Holy Flag of PC's for everyone into battle against the Dark Knight of VAX for those whose deserve it! Give him a call 355-9761 and ask the operator for him. =========== From: JONBOY To: ANGEL Subject: Devil & Billy M Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:54:31 Message Number 6994 I like it - the article I am talking about is TRULY blasphemous and would cause weak-hearted Christians to die of massive heart-attack. =========== From: JONBOY To: ANGEL Subject: Truth Date & Time: 07/30/90 20:56:03 Message Number 6995 Maybe I expect (or hope) too hard that people can see apoint that to me is obvious (of course! and no - I'm NOT that naive). Church history is rampant with persecutions of the early christians. For hundreds of years these people lived in the sewers of Rome for their beliefs they lived year in and out in an atmosphere that was heavy with the possibility of death at the arena or crucifiction. Think about it... our entire nation hasn't been around as long as a SHORT section of these persecutions (which came in waves). I'm sorry - Hitler's influence lasted not even throught the war as silly things like lack of food took their toll on the moral of the people. We are talking a faith that sustained generations of people through unbelievable hardships and in the process still managed to get converts to the faith. It is estimated that there are over 40,000 christian graves in the underground catacombs of Rome and untold hundreds of thousands were burned alive, crucified and thrown to the wild beasts. Even the Roman jailers were awed by the determination of the christians. One slave girl was repeatedly raped and tortured day and night until she died. When asked to turn against her fellow christians she would only say "We are Christians and do no evil amongst ourselves." These people finally won over some of the emperors and finally the killing ceased. Can you think of another culture that has not only endured such treatment but have overcome in the process? Only one I know of andf that is the Jewish people. Full-Circle. =========== From: BOB ARDREN To: JONBOY Subject: Age Date & Time: 07/30/90 21:43:42 Message Number 6996 Just reading a bunch of your messages Jonbody. New kid on the block here so I've no history--but frankly you really were bitching more than a lit tle about the younger generation. And we all know that's an old story. Besides, to tell the truth, the intention was a little gentle kidding. There is room for humor here, no? =========== From: ANGEL To: BEATLE Subject: things... Date & Time: 07/30/90 22:26:03 Message Number 6997 Ooh, finally I find someone who's been to Universal Studios. What's it like (most particularly, is it worth the outrageous entry fee)? =========== From: ANGEL To: JONBOY Subject: definition Date & Time: 07/30/90 22:39:16 Message Number 6998 You've really lost me on this post. I'm not sure what you're talking about. Please define "mainstream" Christianity; from your posts I'm beginning to think that you define mainstream as any group that shares your beliefs, and "cult" as any Christian group that doesn't. If I am wrong, please enlighten me. >Maybe its these people that are causing ALL the ruckus and >sharing the blame? Huh? Really can't follow this one. Oh, other day couldn't find my dictionary, but have it now. According to Webster "cult 1. a system of religious worship or ritual 2 a) devoted attachment to, or extravagant admiration for, a person, principle, etc., esp. when regarded as a fad b) the object of such attachment. 3. a group of followers; sect" General definition does not mention Christianity at all, as your definition particularly cited. Oh, and thanks for informing me that there are many similarities between the Episcopal Church and the RC church. Wow! What a news flash! Personally, I like to think of it as "Catholic Lite". You get the neat ceremonies, but you don't have to worry about the opinions of the guy with the big pointed hat in Rome. =========== From: ANGEL To: JONBOY Subject: small world Date & Time: 07/30/90 22:49:57 Message Number 6999 Small world, indeed! Please give my best to Steve next time you see him. And thanks for the number, I'll give him a call to catch up on old times. What do you do at Hi-Stat (are you employed there, or some other way associated with them)? =========== From: ANGEL To: JONBOY Subject: Truth Date & Time: 07/30/90 23:16:37 Message Number 7000 Yes, the immediate group to come to mind are the Jews. But next comes the followers of Islam, who certainly have overcome in the process. I, too, am awed at the serenity and faith of the early Christians. But, the point of this was, you are trying to use the faith as an arguement about the validity of their beliefs. The fact that many have suffered and died and overcome, does not really give credence to the belief, just to their longevity. And if you try to use shear numbers as an arguement ... that won't really work. Christianity is not the largest religion practiced on this planet. I do see your point ... I just cannot agree with your conclusion. =========== From: TURTLE To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/30/90 23:51:26 Message Number 7001 Yes, Christians as a whole aren't too keen on admitting when parts of their religion are borrowed. I don't see how that relates to your assertion that Catholicism is based largely on Plato's ideas. The Platonic idea of "perfect forms" has very little to do with Catholicism, I fear. =========== From: TURTLE To: ANGEL Subject: definition Date & Time: 07/30/90 23:55:10 Message Number 7002 >Of course, the whole is a rather bizzare one, but quite logical >within its own framework. This is part of the problem with a totally self-contained belief system of any sort. I'd say that Christianity suffers from the same problem, although it's not quite so bizzare--or so perfectly defined. A system such as Christianity (or in fact almost /any/ religion) is hermetically sealed from the real world--it can neither be proven nor disproven from without, and if it avoids any gross errors with self- consistency it can't be disproven from within, either. Of course, I wonder what value such a system has--when it comes right down to it, it's not terribly helpful if you're trying to understand the universe around you. I can fabricate the existance of s divine being with any characteristics I choose, create a whole detailed theology around this deity, and as long as I make sure it dovetails with the general conception, viola! A brand-new religion that absolutely cannot be dis: proven by any feat of logic whatever. =========== From: TURTLE To: BEATLE Subject: express Date & Time: 07/31/90 00:03:30 Message Number 7003 The stuff isn't that tough. Keep wiggling your hand and you'll create a pool of liquid oobleck around it, and you can work your hand out fairly easily. Now mix some CONCRETE with the oobleck and you've got a stickier problem. =========== From: TURTLE To: RUFUS Subject: VH-1 Date & Time: 07/31/90 00:06:31 Message Number 7004 24 hours of Madonna? I can't think of a blessed thing I'd like more, EXCEPT MAYBE HAVING MY TONGUE WRAPPED AROUND A QUISINART BLADE!!! 24 hours of Madonna sounds like a truly orgasmic feast of pure pleasure- IF YOU ENJOY THREE-METER DIVING INTO BUCKETS OF RUSTY NAILS. Madonna is truly incomparable in the field of modern music-- BECAUSE THERE'S NOBODY AROUND WHO WOULDN'T KILL YOU IF YOU COMPARED THEM TO HER!!!!!!! --An aggravated Turtle =========== From: TURTLE To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: Earth. Date & Time: 07/31/90 00:10:11 Message Number 7005 >...maybe I'll subject you to my debates over a homosexual's rights... >they do have rights, y'know? Really? =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/31/90 00:12:58 Message Number 7006 The objection I have to hell is one of the things I dislike about Christianity as it is currently practiced, not an objection to Christianity in general. The objection I have to Christianity in general is a lot simpler: I don't buy into the entire belief system at all. (Haven't found a belief system I /do/ buy into yet, although I must admit that Wicca has impressed me more than any of the other religions I've come across so far.) =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/31/90 00:18:28 Message Number 7007 Well, yes, it was a rather big step to assume that the ball could pass through the ground--I threw that in because it illustrates more clearly the path the ball is /trying/ to follow. It wouldn't try to describe a spiral because the path it's trying to follow is an ellipse around the planet's center of mass--it'd only start spiralling if it did, in fact, make it into orbit, in which case what it's trying to do is assume an elliptical orbit that's closer to the planet's surface, only before it can make it the planet gets in the way. When you throw it up, it /starts out/ in a stable orbit--but the planet gets in the way before it gets very far. =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/31/90 00:22:34 Message Number 7008 Yes, it is dumb. Funny, but dumb. (You don't believe it's funny, corner somebody on the street and tell it to him--his expression will almost certainly amuse you.) =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/31/90 00:26:55 Message Number 7009 >...carries the Holy Flag of PC's for everyone into battle against >the Dark Knight of VAX... AAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Truth Date & Time: 07/31/90 00:29:51 Message Number 7010 >Can you think of another culture that has not only endured such >treatment but has overcome in the process? Buddhists, during the First Dynasty in Japan when the emperor declared Shinto to be the official religion and reserved special persecution for those who were unfortunate enough to admit that they were Buddhist? ...or is that a rhetorical question? I'd still say that the fact that a belief is popular, or capable of inspiring fanaticism among its followers, or even long-lived doesn't necessarily have any bearing on its validity. =========== From: TURTLE To: <*>:*.*.* Subject: -///- Date & Time: 07/31/90 00:34:46 Message Number 7011 "It's too far away," Turtle says unnecessarily as Mulligan comes to the same conclusion himself. The reptile gazes around the bar, then pokes at the piano, still sending the odd trail of smoke into the air. "I like pianos," he says to nobody in particular. "Um, you know, you don't just bring something like that into Ranea, and I don't care WHO you are. Ain't nobody nowhere would bring a thing like that here just to get one person. Doesn't matter how pissed off they were, there's easier ways to go after somebody, you know? That thing was already here before somebody took a liking to our friendly local insurance salesman. I bet Wezip's right arm that someone's started stockpiling--uh--stock...hey, are you listening to me?" The turtle makes an exasperated noise at Mulligan's back. "I said, there's--oh, never mind." Turtle makes a rude noise and sits heavily on the stool next to Rufus, which collapses under his weight, dumping the surprised-looking reptile on the floor for the third time today. He picks it up and turns it over to reveal the scorch marks on its underside. "Um, where's Donthen? He needs to get better bar furniture, you know?" =========== From: BEATLE To: ANGEL Subject: things... Date & Time: 07/31/90 01:27:26 Message Number 7013 >...is it worth the outrageous entry fee? Well, it all depends. I, myself, would pay $30 to see the backlot where they filmed "Back to the Future"... unfortunately, that's still standing in California, and not here... The rides at Universal aren't big "rides" like rollercoasters, but if you're interested in film and such, then it doesn't really matter. When I went, the ride part of "Earthquake" was closed, and "Kongfrontation" was closed totally. The "Jaws" ride is fun. The "E.T." ride is really spectacular, and I felt compensated for the two 1/2 hours waiting the first day (the next day, we got through in ten minutes, being in front of the line)... If you're into memorabilia, there is a shop that has authentic items valued at hundreds of dollars, pluss they sell just about anything related to Universal films you can think of... (the novel from "Back to the Future" was there, after I had spent a long time trying to find it locally) They have street sets that are authentic down to small details that you actually can walk through, and they have great tours and shows. There were some other good things about it, too. If the things I've mentioned don't interest you, then you probably won't find it worth the admission, but I found it fascinating, and much better than Disney/MGM Studios... =========== From: BEATLE To: TURTLE Subject: oobleck Date & Time: 07/31/90 01:48:27 Message Number 7014 Fine, now I know how to get my hand out of the stuff, but how do I make the stuff??? =========== From: RUFUS To: TURTLE Subject: VH-1 Date & Time: 07/31/90 02:07:30 Message Number 7015 I'd rather see 24 hrs. of Rush, myself. Or Pink Floyd. =========== From: RUFUS To: ... Subject: ... Date & Time: 07/31/90 02:37:20 Message Number 7016 I stand up and look at the remains of my briefcase, which reminds me of the time my toaster blew up. From the smoking remains dangling from the chain around my wrist, I can hear the words "index phagocytic low" being repeated over and over. I bash the briefcase on the counter and it finally stops. "Angel, you should really stop running around like that," I say and add "Uh-oh" as Mulligan walks towards me. He asks me the dreaded question. "Why's somebody trying to kill me? Uh....errr, job hazards, I guess. I dunno anyone pissed enough to send a robot after me. Those things /are/ expensive, and my death's not worth that much," I respond. Mulligan, looking less than happy with my answer, was about to respond when Turtle walked over, sat down, and promptly met the floor with a loud crash. Mulligan turns to address the reptile and I slip over to Angel. I watch as the wound finishes repairing itself and comment, "Ya know, that's a pretty neat trick. Did you happen to mention this on your insurance application? You'd get 8% off. I'm lucky I didn't get wounded since the briefcase /did/ blow up on me." I quickly reach behind my back and feel my left shoulder, or what remains of it. Damn, damn, damn. This is not good. =========== From: AJ-- To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: Rights? Date & Time: 07/31/90 08:08:54 Message Number 7017 Did you say "homosexuals" have rights or not?, I am a little confused on your stance in this matter. TopGun Strikes Again..... Sysop Of ALTnet BBS =========== From: AJ-- To: BIG LEW Subject: Applause Date & Time: 07/31/90 08:10:30 Message Number 7018 Yo, Lew, I don't know who you are, but I wanted to drop a line to tell you, "It's about time", although I no longer lead the "life" of what would be considered "a noble christian", I still believe in the one Almighty. It's about time there was someone open and not ashamed to be a "Christian" and speak about it...(I stand and congradulate you) TopGun Strikes Again..... Sysop Of ALTnet BBS =========== From: AJ-- To: BIG LEW Subject: Homosexuals Date & Time: 07/31/90 08:13:29 Message Number 7019 I prefer to think of "Homosexuality" an alternative, rather than use your termination of "not normal", who is dictating what is Normal or not?....We could say Christianity is not normal in our society today. .....but who am I to define "normal" TopGun Strikes Again..... Sysop Of ALTnet BBS =========== From: ETC... To: AJ-- Subject: Applause Date & Time: 07/31/90 10:55:23 Message Number 7020 "It was the best of times. It was the worst of times..." That about sums up todays world of belief and disbelief... =========== From: BIG LEW To: AJ-- Subject: applause accept Date & Time: 07/31/90 14:06:29 Message Number 7022 Congratulations accepted (modestly, of course) as it seems this admission tends to make most people very uncomfortable. Not that I pre- tend to be perfect: I have some very nasty vices and do not consider my- self living the "perfect" (whatever that is) Christian life. But, I know that HE accepts me and forgives my sinS and believing that is very important and goes hand in hand in believing in salvation. =========== From: BIG LEW To: AJ-- Subject: Homosexuals Date & Time: 07/31/90 14:13:05 Message Number 7023 You are absolutely right (what is the definition of that?) The word normal is not the word I wanted. It is abnormal only to me, meaning that is not a part of what I believe in. And, what "should be and shouldn't be" are only personal opinions, which I can accept the opinions of others and I love to disagree, based again on what I think is normal. Do you realize how far a conversation could go on just the definition of normal? I do stand corrected and yet, still can't think what word I really wanted to use. I did check and somebody else told me that "gerbiling" is an actual practice. I guess I'm still astounded by that!!!!!!!!!!!!!! /s =========== From: YNGLING To: JONBOY Subject: smoking Date & Time: 07/31/90 16:30:52 Message Number 7024 I have the same problem (re: using cigarettes as "props" or "cue cards") when it comes to drawing. I used to smoke 3 packs a day, but if I was entertaining the muse I'd go through a pack in about an hour. Ever since I quit smoking my production rate whenever I find the time to sit at the drawing board (which hasnt been for months..sigh..)has decreased unbelievably. The Yngling =========== From: YNGLING To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: Earth? Date & Time: 07/31/90 16:41:58 Message Number 7025 Dearest Lady - >I could ask the same of the Yngling... So ask! :) The Yngling Everything changes. It always changes and it doesnt mean that What you had or have is any less, just different. We all grow up. -Sherri McMurrin =========== From: YNGLING To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 07/31/90 16:55:15 Message Number 7026 The first time my wife heard about "gerbaling" she refused to believe it. I had to find three separate independent sources in order to prove it to her...at which point she became physically ill. California seems to breed some really sick bastards doesnt it? The part about rolling them in coke is a new twist I hadnt heard of yet...what next? The Yngling =========== From: YNGLING To: RAVEN Subject: $$$ Date & Time: 07/31/90 17:01:51 Message Number 7027 Why pay $35 to have someone else run a security check when you can do it yourself? Its surprisingly easy once you get started, and it can be very educational when you start to realize exactly what information is available to /anyone/ who wants to bother to look for it. The Yngling =========== From: YNGLING To: BEATLE Subject: MTV Date & Time: 07/31/90 17:15:35 Message Number 7028 Anyone who can sit through an entire episode of "Just Say Julie" without being physically restrained and therefore unable to reach the remote, or not under the influence of mind altering drugs (and I dont even want to try and imagine watching that show stoned...) has been living in his or her basement for too long and should seriiously consider seeking help (either from a psychobabblist or from a Nielson family member). The Yngling =========== From: BEATLE To: RUFUS Subject: VH-1 Date & Time: 07/31/90 18:21:01 Message Number 7029 > Or Pink Floyd. I dunno if you'll find that on VH-1. They do have a marathon of someone every Sunday, though. They've done two stretches of Paul McCartney, which is fine, but they used less than half of their library of his videos. They've even done three days of Phil Collins and Genesis. MTV had a Pink Floyd special on the other night after the Knebworth concert (which was 11 hours of performers, including Paul McCartney, Genesis, and Pink Floyd, cut down to a mere 4 hours 50 minutes)... =========== From: JONBOY To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:03:59 Message Number 7030 Well, my friend Darryl works volunteer at the Presidio hospital and t that stuff has been going on for years. Your friend embellishes the story just a tad however. #12 they use heavy rubber balloons so that the rodent can't scratch or bite. It is the motion that "gets them off". The idea of rolling it in Coke is pure fantasy as Coke is an anisthetic and would actually circumvent any pleasure by numbing the anal passageway. Now - maybe it isn't kosher to use a live animal as a sex toy, but is the practice any different that a man/woman inserting items into the vagina/anus as a sexual technique? =========== From: JONBOY To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:10:04 Message Number 7031 Believe it or not - you probably have been oogled by a male homosexual and never even knew it. Further, if you are even suspected of being hetero the chances are slim that he will attempt to contact, talk or in any way deal with you on any other that a very shallow layer. Most homosexuals realize that their position and lifestyle are open to critique and minimum and violent opposition at worst from their fellow human beings - they have learned to be careful when out of their "element". As far as other "deviant" sexual practices. Women are sexually mature at various ages between 10 and 15 years of age. I personally know of a lady that actively *encourages* her 14 year old daughter to have boyfriends stay over and share her bed. She is a very "normal" 14 year old in every way and I can't say that early sexual experience has hurt her one bit. Her Mom's rational: I would rather have her under the roof of a safe house than groping around who the hell knows where and I would rather have her know about and USE contraceptives than have a surprise for me someday". I also knew of a man and his wife that had the same attitude in Calif- ornia. His daughter climbed into bed with my roomate and he almost had a cow "You're only 13!" he hissed! She left and came back with her sleepy dad who said " Be picky Mark - but please don't be a prude!". He was concerned about his daughter feeling rejected and rather approved of her propensity to take older lovers rather than "rash youths" as he phrased it. Now - what narrow little way are YOU going to prescribe as "normal"? Should a lot of Japanese and Hindu writings and art be burned as pornographic because it deals with sex in many forms between consenting adults? =========== From: JONBOY To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:21:32 Message Number 7032 I'm curious - are you aware of what the subject matter of "Lola" by the Kinks is all about? =========== From: JONBOY To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:23:02 Message Number 7033 How in hell did you manage to include bona-fide criminal acts with percieved "crimes against nature". /Forcing/ the sexual act upon anyone without their consent is an abomination and a crime. No one is arguing that point. It a pretty piss-poor argument tactic worthy of McCartheism to try and undermine a valid topic with slander and misdirected allegations. Please sir, confine yourself to valid argumental topics! =========== From: JONBOY To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:26:22 Message Number 7034 But that DOES leave open the possiblity of a feminine male and a masculine female by your own admission. Besides the point that homosexuality has not one iota to a quark in it's dealings with the concept of masculine and feminine. They are irrelevant topics in any discussion on homosexuality. =========== From: JONBOY To: MAX Subject: Sorry Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:36:56 Message Number 7035 Sorry - that's MY quote! =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Truth Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:39:15 Message Number 7036 I /love/ that quote " to preach to the convinced"!!! Sadly - a lot of people really feel that way. What is truly meant is that questions that you may have had on /many/ subjects thru the bible will be made clearer to you after you are a Christian. I mean - what are the references to "gods" in the psalms? The answer will make more sense to a Christian - but also you have to study hard and understand a LOT to get to the root of the matter. The Bible has many minor plots and minor intrigues to be looked into - but many of them simply cannot be understoof outside the framework of Christianity/Judaism. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Bible Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:44:04 Message Number 7037 Good quote - I notice that it seems the proof was not lacking? =========== From: JONBOY To: BEATLE Subject: spam Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:48:09 Message Number 7038 The connection was "meat substitute" a rather old cliche' that I assumed everyone would be familiar (if not tired) of. A moment of weakness... =========== From: JONBOY To: BEATLE Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:49:32 Message Number 7039 Hey the drugs are the eggs fried in Butter. =========== From: JONBOY To: BOB ARDREN Subject: Age Date & Time: 07/31/90 21:57:27 Message Number 7040 You are absolutely so far out in left field that I'm kinda glad you aren't in a little closer. I have never ever bitched about young people and have even come to their defense several times on this board. Youth has absolutely no part in my judgements or comments unless it is of an accepted descriptive nature that /may/ connote "youth" such as immature, childish - which I will add here and now are applicabl to ANYONE that deserves them regardless of chronological age. Have I made my position clear? As a newcomer I would bid you welcome but please get to "know" someone before pulling the anal-cranial insertion maneuver. =========== From: JONBOY To: ANGEL Subject: definition Date & Time: 07/31/90 22:02:14 Message Number 7041 Ok, let's not get nasty. YOU were referiing to cults in the context of Christanity and I simply followed the lead. Manson lead a cult and claimed he was teh Christ but I doubt that you would bend the definition that you so playfully bat about to his little gang. There are recognized denominations (recognized by who?- themselves of course! Everyone loves a cicular definition and here it is!). Cults as I tend to use the term are Christian sects that their beliefs depend on some special revelation and/or dispensation. I ignore the fringe groups like Baha'i and the followers of Yogi Rajaneeshjaphur who advocated sexual freedom and promiscuity in his kingdom that they were booted out of in Oregon. There are books published by recognized Christian publishers, accepted by all faiths as guidelines to these cults. I simply would rather refer you to the fact that this is how thet are viewed by the religious organizations that be. =========== From: JONBOY To: ANGEL Subject: small world Date & Time: 07/31/90 22:09:10 Message Number 7042 I program computers and build custom production and lab testing equipment for them. Steve used to do this but he saw the promo express comin thru and pounced as his progenitor fell on his face. So far I assume they are satisfied with his work. We tend to cover each others butts as our vested interests lie on the same plane. =========== From: JONBOY To: ANGEL Subject: Truth Date & Time: 07/31/90 22:11:21 Message Number 7043 I was referring to the "fact" that as they were in the heart of the maelstrom - they were in contact with a richness of lore and stories t\ that we can only allude to. Being that close to the source it would seem to me (maybe mistakenly) that they would also be able to see any lies and half-truths more clearly. Simply put - they had the benefit of proximity to fuel their faith. Some actually knew the man and went to their death singing his praises. Strange behavior for a deluded man - is it not? I prefer to think that their faith was reinforced by the simple mechanism they were close to its' source and were better able to judge its' authenticity. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/31/90 22:15:32 Message Number 7044 Borrowed - the RC church borrowed heavily from the pagan festivals and decided that the best PR was to move the dates of Christian holidays to coincide so as to minimize the conversion trauma. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/31/90 22:18:12 Message Number 7045 What manifest bullshit (tm)! Better yet assume a black hole as one focii and maybe you have something except the mechanism to put the ball into the proper frame of reference... =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/31/90 22:19:48 Message Number 7046 Hehehe - ya like the way I slipped that in did ya! =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Truth Date & Time: 07/31/90 22:20:45 Message Number 7047 True - it was an emotionally laden appeal. Happy? =========== From: TURTLE To: BEATLE Subject: oobleck Date & Time: 08/01/90 01:23:47 Message Number 7048 I have no idea how you actually make oobleck. The only person I know of who /does/ know has left the state, so the mystery may be unsolved forever. =========== From: TURTLE To: RUFUS Subject: VH-1 Date & Time: 08/01/90 01:24:36 Message Number 7049 I'd MUCH rather see Rush or Pink Floyd than Madonna, in the same way I'd rather be given a Swedish massage by Nastassia Kinski than have my left foot amputated by a young child with a chainsaw. MTV had a Pink Floyd special on last Saturday after their re-broadcast of Knebworth. Pink Floyd gets two hours, Madonna gets a day...go figure. =========== From: TURTLE To: ETC... Subject: Applause Date & Time: 08/01/90 01:28:41 Message Number 7050 >That about sums up todays world of belief and disbelief. Not only that, but it'd be a dandy way to start a book, too. =========== From: TURTLE To: YNGLING Subject: $$$ Date & Time: 08/01/90 01:31:21 Message Number 7051 >Why pay $35 to have somebody else run a security check on you... I think he's referring to a credit check. TRW will supply anyone with anyone else's credit history for thirty-five bucks. There's a reward of $2,000 that's been offered by someone whose name I forget to the first person who can show that his credit history is 100% error-free; it's been offered for two years that I'm aware of and so far nobody's collected. =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/01/90 01:34:18 Message Number 7052 >...is the practice [of gerbiling] any different than a man/woman >inserting items into the vagina/anus as a sexual technique? Is this a trick question? I'd say the obvious answer is "yes." =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Truth Date & Time: 08/01/90 01:37:38 Message Number 7053 >The Bible has many minor plots and minor intrigues to be looked into - >but many of them cannot be understood outside the framework of >Christianity/Judiasm. Yes, that is absolutely true. I don't think that means that you have to /be/ a Christian in order to understand them, though; were that the case, the Bible'd be pretty useless as a method of gaining converts (or "convincing people of the Truth," if you will). Seems to me that the direct word of an active and living god would be more universal than some Christains would think--the pronouncements from On High which are supposed to be good news to all humankind are not going to be accessable only to those who already buy into the faith to begin with, now, are they? A poor revelation indeed /that/ would be! It sounds to me that this is more of a case of "Once I believe with all my heart then the mysteries of Christianity go away because I no longer have to think about them rationally. Pity the poor people who haven't seen the Light yet and still think rationally about this stuff." =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Bible Date & Time: 08/01/90 01:42:28 Message Number 7054 The arguments are certainly there for convincing us that the triune god is a singular entity, but they're kinda awkward and kludgy. Proof? Depends on who you ask. A system of faith is not generally subject to "proof" at all. It all depends on whether or not you're convinced by the eloquence of the argument. Speaking of which, another quote from the same man got me thinking last night. Dr. Snyder also said "We follow the Hebrews, who struggle and struggle and eventually come up with monotheism. Then they turn around and give it to the Indo-Europeans and what happens? Bang! They invent the Trinity." The concept of the Trinity seems to be a fairly recent invention, one that post-dates the branching of Islam from Judiasm (Muslims consider the Trinity to be the rankest form of heresy), and it originated in a place whose dominant religion of the time was Wicca, which has (are you ready for this?) a Trinity of its own--the three faces of the Goddess (maiden, mother, and crone). Hmmmmmmmmmm....it wouldn't be the first idea Christianity borrowed from Wicca... =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Truth Date & Time: 08/01/90 01:49:42 Message Number 7055 Simple proximity to the source has never been shown to be of any value in determining a religion's authenticity--lookit all the various beliefs wandering around, from Dianetics to the followers of Sun Moyen Moon (or whatever the hell his name is), and you'll see that. A highly charismatic individual can get people to do, say, or believe almost anything--and the fact that you're standing right next to him doesn't mean you're more likely to decide he's a fake. The fact that Christianity has managed to survive for as long as it has speaks more, I think, for its history of...aah, how to say? brutal approach to gaining acceptance than it does to any intrinsic value; hell, there's a lotta faiths older than Christianity (Shinto, Wicca, Hinduism, etc, etc) that are still doing quite nicely, thank you very much. =========== From: RUFUS To: TURTLE Subject: VH-1 Date & Time: 08/01/90 03:06:18 Message Number 7056 >...go figure. Madonna gets 12 times the coverage of Floyd. How's that for figuring? Madonna, the lady who should register her outfits as lethal weapons. "My god, it was awful, she ran in here with her bronze breasts and poked his eyes out." =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: TURTLE Subject: aristotle Date & Time: 08/01/90 07:26:11 Message Number 7057 Continue to fear. The ansawer is Aristotle. Aquinus borrowed heavily fro m him. He borrowed from Plato, the dude not the system. The cave bit is an example of what a true believer has to accept. I believe that the idea of an orange tree growing in the center of the room is fascinating. It is there because I believe it is there. You can have the same belief but the tree can be over by the door. The two trees will never colide and I can walk through your tree as you can walk through mine. .s =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: MAX Subject: relationships Date & Time: 08/01/90 07:37:14 Message Number 7058 Max if a person makes a really bad mistake. A mistake that is socially n ot acceptable to my culture I get uptight and step back a few yards. This dude made such a mistake. I was debating whether to run the mile in 4 minutes or say I accept you for who you are. I accepted him for who he is. This was quite a change from my normal reaction. This Christianity is potent stuff. I said to D... I may disagree with you life style but you basically are a person I want to know. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: RAVEN Subject: relationships Date & Time: 08/01/90 07:45:06 Message Number 7059 Ever try to change some of that data? I proved to a court magistrate that a document was wrong. He had the power to seal the document but refused. He told me to write a reply to it. I did. The reply was then evaluated as an opinion by his office even though his counsel helped me writ the document. The reply was removed after a year. The original document remains unchallenged. The attorney who helped write the answer is a hundred dollars wealthier and the judge could care less about the whole affair. The law is a farse. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: JONBOY Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 08/01/90 07:53:19 Message Number 7060 Non-sequitor means that the idea being expressed does not follow the thought that was just expressed by you. I read the word in an Isanov book and it met that the speaker was not being logical. The speaker was not stating black and white truths. His words had gray meanings =========== From: MAX To: YNGLING Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/01/90 13:51:37 Message Number 7062 > California seems to breed some really sick bastards doesnt it? Perhaps, but I suspect no worse so than a lot of big cities in this country and across Europe. They just don't have the reputation that CA does -- most of which is, one suspects, exaggeration. I know a lot of people in California, and a lot of them are weird, but proportionately no more so than people I know in other parts of the country. A lot of European countries are a lot more accepting of sexual behavior "out of the norm" and, it seems, a little less sensitive to the rights of others (even, as in the sick example at hand, of animals) as Americans are, perhaps especially Californians. If CA is more accepting of behavior that the rest of the country finds "weird," it's probably for the better, not the worse. And I suspect very few Californians woul be tolerant of 'gerbiling' for the reasons a few people on this board have raised -- it's effectively torturing animals to death. =========== From: MAX To: JONBOY Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/01/90 14:00:24 Message Number 7063 > Is the practice any different than inserting items into the vagina/ > anus as a sexual technique? Yes. One's torturing an animal to death, the other one isn't. Seems to be a pretty clear difference to me. =========== From: DONTHEN To: ANGEL Subject: rip Date & Time: 08/01/90 16:03:58 Message Number 7064 Wezip blinks, looking somewhat confused, then focuses on the question he was just asked. "None. A friend of mine from Rionar is coming up -- Jack usually stays with me when he's on business. And," the fox sighs deeply, "he talked me into letting some friend of his stay with me until he finds a place to live here. Some starving artist type, Mika, Mikey, something like that. It's times like these that make me glad the real estate agent talked me into getting a house with a guest room." --- "An assassin guild is more expensive than you're evidently aware of," Mulligan says irritably to Turtle, the only visible sign that he was paying attention to the reptile. He points at the readout on the briefcase and addresses Rufus. "Would you mind enlightening us uneducated types as to what a 'phygocatic index' is -- and, perhaps, how it connects to whatever just attacked you?" =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 08/01/90 17:29:20 Message Number 7066 T>Plato was a bore. So was Polonius. So? =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/01/90 17:30:39 Message Number 7067 S>Homosexuality is not a "preference", it's a sickness T>A difficult premiss to support, I think, Yes, that's the trouble. What you think...and half the other people. You just don't understand that it is a sickness. A mental defect. Men are not supposed to be attracted to other men, otherwise we'd be HERMAPHRODITES! (SP?) Men just don't have the proper equipment to have sexual relations with other men; it's like trying to stuff a square peg into a round hole! It wasn't designed to work that way. YOU (and half the other folks) just don't seem to understand that FACT. Now, that dissapoints me, because you seem to have a very good grip on other facts. I can dissmiss others as not having a good grip on facts in general. I don't know why I bother to explain it to you, you jsut can't seem to get that FACT thru your head. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/01/90 17:38:49 Message Number 7068 T>S>>Public opinion changes...reinforce...opinoin... T>S>> T> T>I'm sorry, I simply cannot accept bigotry as "moral", T> That's the beauty of it. No one CARES what you think. And so, society goes on it's bigoted way. And fully believes that it is doing the "moral" thing. (How about when we weren't so enlightened about black people? It was common for some folk to have slaves...and it was considered perfectly ok for someone to abuse them. Where was the morality then? Do you think anyone would have cared what you thought was moral or immoral? Hell, no.) =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/01/90 17:43:54 Message Number 7069 T>The only evidence you've provided to support your judgement of T>homosexuality so far is "everyone else thinks that way"! You are full of shit. Really. Unmitigated, manifest, BULLSHIT. You haven't listened to (read) a word I've said (typed), have you? And where do you get off calling it a judgement? All I have done is told you fact. Things weren't meant to go like that. To do like that is the sign of a sick mind. IT FOLLOWS! LOGICALLY. Besides, on an issue like this, you can only take one of three positions available. Pro, Anti, or Neutral. "Look there ain't no in between. Either you suck dick, or you don't suck dick." - Andrew "Dice" Clay =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: BEATLE Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/01/90 17:51:44 Message Number 7070 What would you say about a person who constantly had his finger up his ass? Or thier toes up thier nose? Would you say they were strange? How about if they enjoyed having their ass? I mean, really enjoyed it, got off on it and everything? Would you say that person is a normal member of society? Now, how about if he did it in public, right next to your booth in a restaraunt? Would you still thing, oh, a average member of society? I don't think so. I personally would reccomend a good psychiatrist. I might get offended. (Hah! "might") Why? You might say. That's just a preference that he has? No, I'd reply as if to a child, he's sick. You shouldn't put things where they weren't meant to go, no matter how much you enjoy it. You can get diseases that way. Didn't your mother teach you anything? Or didn't you listen? =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: RAVEN Subject: relationships Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:00:24 Message Number 7071 Do you know what connotation means? =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: RAVEN Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:03:35 Message Number 7072 R>...figuring yours at about a 6.... Fuck you. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: RAVEN Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:08:55 Message Number 7073 S>Homosexuality is not a "preference", it's a sickness. S> R>As is monogamy, if you take rate of occurance as the indicator. R> I don't. Monogamy or polygamy is the the issue. What you said has abosolutely no bearing on this issue. It is irrelevant.  Man was not meant to have sexual relations with man. Period. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: RAVEN Subject: I did not say Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:13:00 Message Number 7074 R>But you did say that morality was determined by popular opinion. R>Please explain the reconcilliation of these two apparently R>contradictory statements. I said that popular opinion determined society's morality. There is no contradiction. There is no need for reconcilliation. Please pay attention. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: V Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:17:39 Message Number 7075 V>...show me a heterosexual male who isn't slightly effeminate. No problem. V>...show me a heterosexual male who isn't slightly effeminate. Yes, but I wasn't saying "slightly"...I was talking abou all-out swishing! And the exact opposites for thier counterparts! =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: MAX Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:20:55 Message Number 7076 Homosexuals can be classified as sick by comparison with any other act which is abnormal. (See my note to Beatle.) On that precept, let me ask you a question...would you accept any person's word who has been declared insane? To what degree is not relevant, just answer the question. And something else for you to consider...just because they haven't said that homo's aren't sick doesn't mean that they actually AREN'T. Besides, what doctor is going put down a prospective patient? I know that if my reputation (and my finances) depended on whether or not I claimed homos were actually sick, (and I knew that doing so would reflect adversely) I would never admit it! =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: JONBOY Subject: Guitars Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:33:41 Message Number 7077 wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwWWWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEWwwwwwwwww Right over my head..."like a Strat but only 2 pickups..." Sounds great! "Scarborough Fair" "Bad Moon Risin" "Hotel California" "Peace Train"... The Doghouse? Isn't that a restaraunt? =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: JONBOY Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:36:34 Message Number 7078 Ok. Then, since I forgot, I will on the same terms, conceede the point. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: JONBOY Subject: JOB Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:38:15 Message Number 7079 Sounds cool. Do you ever use Orcad or like that? =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/01/90 18:58:39 Message Number 7080 S>SICK_SICK_SICK_SICK_SICK... Ah, the calvary has arrived. Where the hellya been? These guys are "preference"ing me to death! Of course, you realize that they are going to dismiss your point with a wave and say, "Well, that's sick because they used an animal...it's still a preference..." I swear to GOD...sometimes they make me sick. "Methinks the woman doth protest too much...." (or somthing like that) -- Shakespeare =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: AJ - Subject: Normal Date & Time: 08/01/90 19:08:36 Message Number 7082 Normal. As in the opposite of abnormal. The label is perfect. If we use terms like "socially acceptable" or "homophobially recognized" then we don't get the meaning across because people have to cut through the crap to get at the real meaning...it's simpler to say "normal" and express what is meant. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Truth Date & Time: 08/01/90 21:55:06 Message Number 7083 Seems to me thatthe direct word of an active and living god would be more universal than some Christains would think-- C'mon! Is that to say that the person who reads a book by - say - John le Carre' and only sees the obvious spy plot without the subtle intrigue is as good or an effective reader as say a person that has actual experience. I would say that experience and understanding of the subject matter make the nuances a little more easy to grasp and even obvious where otherwise they would be a simple footnote. The Bible as literature is very complex and carries many messages at various levels. To understand some of the more profound messages takes study and a certain amount of acceptyance of the subject matter. A little prayer never hurt for elucidation either.. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Bible Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:00:46 Message Number 7084 T>depends on whether or not you're convinced bythe eloquence ... Not necessarily true - this would involve a semantic based argument. What it does depend on is acceptance of the Bible as God's word. Without this you don't even have the basis of an argument. T>concept of the Trinity seems to be a fairly recent invention, If you look at the surface and consider only the New Test. In the old testamnet there are many visits by what are initially specified as " "angels" that in fact many scholars believe to be visits from Christ himself - the note here is that even back then they refer to this entity as Lord. The best example of this is where the three visitors come by and visit Abraham on the way to destroy Sodom & Gomorrah. Since we have testimony that the face of God the Father may not be looked upon, we must assume that this particular Lord that Abraham is talking to must be a part of the Godhead. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Truth Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:06:26 Message Number 7085 I would like to point out that these charismatic individuals have never been put to quite the test as have early Christians. The worst they get is the occasional beatings from rednecks, irate travellers in airports and the occasional security guard or so. Followers of some of the low level cults (like the gurus) are even more casual about dropping their mentors with little thought. Groups like the moonies actually are a slightly different case because they practise mind altering techniques akin to brainwashing techniques developed many years ago. There is a whole group of people dedicated to kidnapping moonies and reprogramming them to return to their families. =========== From: JONBOY To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: Reality Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:10:49 Message Number 7086 I have one in my backyard that I don't give a damn how many times you think you can go through it you will break your nose. What was the name of that British priest or whatever - the one that wrote the cute little poem about perception in the garden and how the entire framework of what we know is held together by the infinite perception of the Almighty Himself? He was a contemporary with Hobbs (who was the spiritual father of the constitution). Philosophy - weird stuff but a good exercise for the mind. I find people like Sartre' to be far more readable (if no more believable) than off the wall philosophies on the tangible world around us. =========== From: JONBOY To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:16:05 Message Number 7087 Non-sequitor means ----speaker was not being logical... It means that the speaker or debater was not presenting a line of thought consistant with the current line of reasoning. Truth has very little to do with a debate unless it is challenged on those grounds. =========== From: JONBOY To: MAX Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:18:54 Message Number 7088 You and Turtle both have the same reply - if it wasn't such a pain I'd reread the post - I thought that I had made it clear that the suffering of the animal was totally unacceptable - what I was attempting to ascertain was the viewpoint of - aside frome those concerns - was the speaker concerned with the practise of inserting objects into bodily orifices morally objectionable as "sick". People can have more than one level of objection on a subject and I was simply trying to isolate one, ie - what is *really* bothering you? The plight of the animal or the fact that inserting objects is "kinky". =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:24:31 Message Number 7089 Sorry - the fact that you so blithly pander as truth is a statement without truth or logic within itself. Any human being has the capability to evaluate a situation and come to a decision and implement a plan of action. The hom,osexual realizes his/her predisposition and if they are mentally healthy - accept their preference as reality and act on that premise by taking lovers of like tendancy. This is a decision made with rational thought and hardly a disease that can be treated with chicken soup. =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:38:48 Message Number 7090 S>Look there ain't no in between. Either you suck dick, or you don't S>suck dick." - Andrew "Dice" Clay That particular quote was in reference to either women or male gays. It hardly affects or addresses the question of lesbianism. It's effect is simply to shock us poor liberals - but - Ho-hum - we are adults and hopefully are cogizant of the gratification associated with fellatio and cunnilingus. Sorry bud, Turtle's correct in that you have provided no support for your assertion that "everyone else thinks that way". Tell ya what.. go on several boards in /any/ area that you choose and see if you can get enough replies to convince us that moral cretinism is alive and well in redneck amerika. I wish your best friend would tell you he's gay so that you would be forced to pull your head out of your ass long enough to think with your brain. The problem that you exhibit is a fascination with violation of the particular orifice known as the "poop chute". Learn that it is of no consequence to you what another person's sexual orientation is... Live and Let live as the old cliche goes... =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:44:31 Message Number 7091 Y'know - as an interesting sidelight do you know that according to a study performed in the mid-sixties - about 70% of all american males have a homosexual encounter of /some/ kind by the time they are 18 years old? Wasn't yours good? =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Guitars Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:47:33 Message Number 7092 Yeah just off 41 the light before you hit Cortez. Ain't this great? We can get all pissed off at each other over a gay issue or God and still take a break to talk guitars. I have /my/ priorities straight! Yeah - a Strat has 3 staggered pickups and a 5 position switch - mine has 2 pickups and a 3 position switch. Basically the same sound. I use it and the Gibson for blues/boogie and some Rock. The Ibanez is all rock-n-roll. My 12 string is for Eagles and Dan Fogelberg etc (America) Maybe we can have some Tacos someday, declare a moratorium on the gay issue and flirt with Dianne the bartender... =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: JOB Date & Time: 08/01/90 22:52:09 Message Number 7093 I use both OrCAD STD /// and the printed circuit package PCB //. Usually I use off the shelf stuff because it just makes no sense to make a custom board that someone else has for a one-off piece of equipment. =========== From: BEATLE To: RUFUS Subject: VH-1 Date & Time: 08/01/90 23:29:59 Message Number 7094 > Madonna gets 12 times the coverage of Floyd. Yeah, annoying isn't it. At least they haven't sunk to the lowest form of entertainment possible - 24 hours of New Kids On the Block. At least Madonna's music has a bit going for it... some of the songs are interesting pop (you all know I don't hate pop as much as you do), and some just suck heavy moose dung. Unfortunately, Madonna SELLS more than Pink Floyd... the market is teenagers, and Madonna appeals more than Pink Floyd... the same thing can happen to anybody. MTV caters to the masses, and occasionally to  smaller groups... =========== From: BEATLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/01/90 23:39:13 Message Number 7095 > ...can't seem to get that FACT thru your head. I got the fact through my head, and I still stand on Turtle's side. The whole subject is touchy. I think you've made a great point, but the fact that we are not hermaphrodites doesn't mean homosexuality is a sickness. I find the point very convincing... but it leaves things open. By the logic I think you are following, sex is strictly for reproduction of the species. Following that idea, any sexthat does not produce offspring can be equated with homosexuality. This still leaves the idea of the "sickness" unproved. =========== From: BEATLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 08/01/90 23:45:44 Message Number 7096 > IT FOLLOWS! LOGICALLY. No, the fact that something is done different than intended doesn't indicate a sickness. =========== From: BEATLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 08/01/90 23:58:32 Message Number 7097 Just because someone exhibits an odd behavior doesn't mean they're sick. If someone sticks their finger up their nose in public constantly, I believe that's the fault of the parents for not making sure the child didn't do that. It /could/ be a symptom of a sickness, but not always. > Didn't your mother teach you anything? Yes, she taught me the way to think the way I do, which has gotten me pretty far. I also have learned how to take care of myself and be mature ... =========== From: ANGEL To: TURTLE Subject: definition Date & Time: 08/02/90 00:04:49 Message Number 7098 >Viola! A brand-new religion that absolutely cannot be disproven by >any feat of logic whatever. And L. Ron Hubbard created the Word and saw that it was good. And on the seventh day he rested in order to tabulate the proceeds... =========== From: ANGEL To: BEATLE Subject: things... Date & Time: 08/02/90 00:11:11 Message Number 7099 Thanks for the descriptive journey through Universal. You didn't notice if they had piano music in the memorabilia store, did you? Anyway, sounds like a place I'd enjoy, darn it! Why don't I like cheap places? =========== From: ANGEL To: JONBOY Subject: definition Date & Time: 08/02/90 00:43:11 Message Number 7100 > Okay, let's not get nasty. I wasn't getting nasty. I said if I was wrong, correct me...and made sure to end the post with a joke. How far do I have to go to demon- strate to yourself (and others) that I am not angry when I disagree. As far as considering a cult any group that depends on some "special revelation and dispensation"... that applies to all religions. Certainly being born-again is "special revelation". And Christ's death on the cross is the ultimate dispensation. You keep using vague terms to make your points, such as "the fact that this is how they are viewed by the religious organizations that be." Well, my religious organiza- tion exists, and it certainly doesn't view what you call "cults" in that way. Specifically, what groups are you referring to? You make claims that mainstream Christianity thinks in these ways, however, I return examples of Christian groups that don't feel that way and you reject them. I can have no objection with you saying "this is how I feel" or "this is the view of my church", it's when you claim that your view is held by all Christians, I can't let it stand unchallenged; since I am a Christian, and I (as well as my church) disagree Please allow me the freedom to question your statements without you claiming I am somehow lacking in manners. ===========