Article: 68488 of talk.politics.guns
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere?
Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:49:05 GMT
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There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

This posting contains statistics.

In a recent posting, a claim has been made that "thousands of children"
were killed each year by guns. I thought this figure was suspect and
that it seemed way too high. Upon reflection, I realized that many
statistics being bandied about on t.p.g., especially those used to
attempt to diminish the RKBA seemed suspect - and that statistics that
could be VERIFIED as to the source should be used. And what better place
to start than with myself.

I promised to "bell the cat" in an earlier posting. So off I went to the
San Jose main public library. I have the first 1/3 of the statistics
gathered. In order, I am chasing down the following sets of data:

    1. Criminal statistics (how many murders, what weapons, etc.)

    2. Accidental statistics (are bathrooms safer than guns?)

    3. Miscellaneous


PART 1: THE CRIMINAL STATISTICS
===============================
In providing the criminal statistics, I have used the following three
references.

[1] U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics,
    "Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics 1987". Release date of
    August, 1988 Copies may be obtained (if unavailable in your library) 
    from (price unknown):

        Justice Statistics Clearinghouse/NCJRS
        U.S. Department of Justice
        User Services Department 2
        Box 6000
        Rockville, MD  20850

    This is an extremely comprehensive book. Just about any statistic, 
    broken down by all kinds of factors (race, religion, rural .vs. 
    suburban, big .vs. little city, and so on).

[2] U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Inverstigation, 
    "Uniform Crime Reports 1987". Release date of July 10, 1988. 
    Subtitled "Crime in the United States".

    This is a good source of some non-criminal statistics, such as the
    results of polls asking about gun ownership etc.

[3] The California Department of Justice, Division of Law Enforcement,
    Criminal Identification and Information Branch, Bureau of Criminal
    Statistics and Special Services, "BCS Outlook Crime 1988 in Selected 
    California Law Enforcement Jurisdictions, January through December", 
    March 1989.

In some places, I refer to reference [1] as CJS, reference [2] as UCR,
and reference [3] as BCS.

Both CSJ and UCR are the latest available. They are both "released" 7 or
8 months after the end of the year, and are published and then received
by libraries 11 or 12 months later. For example, the CJS was stamped
with a received date of December 1988.

Since that places the data about 18 months behind, I used BCS (which
gives California statistics for 1988) as a "validity check" in case
there was a HUGE crime wave in the last 18 months which somehow would
invalidate the data. Since the California data includes large population
centers with known criminal/gang actvities (Los Angeles county, San
Fransisco), any "crime waves" would show up in these statistics. I
discuss the BCS last.

Note that in some cases, data may be for years prior to 1987 (such as
the conviction data). If other than 1987, data will be so marked.

NUMBERS OF FIREARMS MANUFACTURED IN THE UNITED STATES
-----------------------------------------------------
CJS (see [1]) has data for firearms manufacture from 1977 through 1984.
The starting and ending years are consistent with the intermediate years
(although 1980 and 1981 saw a total of 5.6 and 5.7 million guns total).
These figures do NOT include firearms manufactured for the military. 

1977 Total guns ........... 4,904,422
         Total handguns ... 1,879,645
             Pistols ......   452,667
             Revolvers .... 1,426,978
         Total long guns .. 3,024,777
             Rifles ....... 1,839,925
             Shotguns ..... 1,184,852

1984 Total guns ........... 4,651,477
         Total handguns ... 1,679,709
             Pistols ......   752,919
             Revolver .....   926,790
         Total long guns .. 2,966,838
             Rifles ....... 1,622,890
             Shotguns ..... 1,860,077


GENERAL CRIME STATISTICS
------------------------
U.S. population .... 229,048,000

1985 Property crime ............................... 10,710,870
     Murder & non-negligent manslaughter ..........     18,352
     Forcible rape ................................     81,505
     Robbery ......................................    491,574
     Aggravated assualt ...........................    696,081
     Burglary .....................................  2,960,091
     Larceny-theft ................................  6,680,810
     Motor vehicle theft ..........................  1,069,969

1986 Property crime ............................... 11,324,129
     Murder & non-negligent manslaughter ..........     19,966
     Forcible rape ................................     84,279
     Robbery ......................................    535,929
     Aggravated assualt ...........................    802,189
     Burglary .....................................  3,124,672
     Larceny-theft ................................  7,008,229
     Motor vehicle theft ..........................  1,191,228

For a humorous note in CJS (page 336), "In 1975, the "Human Kindness
Day" activities held in Washington, DC accounted for approximately 500
robbery incidents in that year". Some much for human kindness. :-)


MURDER & NON-NEGLIGENT MANSLAUGHTER, WEAPONS USED
-------------------------------------------------
Data from CSJ[1] (page 337), which in turn credits major parts of
UCR[2]. Guns include all firearms. Knives include all cutting and
stabbing objects (broken bottles etc.), fists include hands, feet and
all body parts, other include drowning, arson, poison, explosives,
narcotices, asphyxiation, etc. Each column is a percentage of the total.
CSJ has statistics from 1964 through 1986.

      Guns   Knives  Clubs  Fists  Other  Unknown  Total murders & NNH
      ----   ------  -----  -----  -----  -------  -------------------
1964   55%      24%     5%    10%     3%       2%       7,990
1974   67%      17%     5%     8%     1%       1%      18,632
1986   59%      20%     6%     9%     2%       4%      19,257

What is most interesting is that murder by guns climbs from 55% in 1964
to 67% in 1974, and then climbs back down to 59% in 1986. When plotted,
it is a classic Gaussian curve. Matching the climb in the first half of
the curve is the total number of murders, coming close to tripling by
1974, then remaining more or less flat from 1974 on.

There is also strong regional bias. In 1986 (CSJ[1], page 337):

           Guns    Knives  Unknown/other/clubs  Fists
           -----   ------  -------------------  -----
Northeast  49.4%    24.2%               12.4%   12.0%
Midwest    60.4%    19.3%               14.6%    5.7%
South      64.3%    18.4%               12.5%    4.8%
West       54.8%    21.7%               15.4%    8.0%

I would perhaps conclude that the strong anti-gun laws in the Northwest
(Ney York City, Boston, Washington DC) is responsible for the highest
use of knives for murder as well as the VERY high use of fists (12%
!!!). It should be noted in the above table that strangulation is moved
from "fists" to "unknown/other" (CSJ[1] note, page 337).


MURDER & NON-NEGLIGENT MANSLAUGHTER, BY AGE
-------------------------------------------
It has been claimed on t.p.g. recently that thousands of children are
killed each year by guns. I am not sure if the claim was accidental
only, murder only, or both. Here is the data for 1987 (UCR[2], page 9):

Total murders and non-negligent manslaughter .... 17,859
    Under 18 ....................................  1,516
    Over 18 ..................................... 16,010

Total murders & NNM by firearms ................. 10,556
    Under 18 ....................................    662
    Over 18 .....................................  9,736

Total CHILD murders & NNM by firearms ...........    205
    Under 1 year of age .........................      7
    1-4 years of age ............................     31
    5-9 years of age ............................     41
    10-14 years of age ..........................    126

Clearly, we are NOT having "thousands of children" murdered by guns each
year.


MURDER & NON-NEGLIGENT MANSLAUGHTER, BY FIREARM TYPE
----------------------------------------------------
Here is the data for 1987 (UCR[2], page 10) for murders and NNM by
firearm type:

Total murders and NNM for 1987 ........................... 17,859
    By firearms .......................................... 10,556
                By handguns ..............................  7,807
                By rifles ................................    772
                By shotguns ..............................  1,095
                By "other" guns (includes air rifles!) ...     16
                Firearm not stated .......................    866

Well, if you look at rifles (which includes assault rifles), the 772
dead are less than 10% of those killed by handguns, and only 4.3% of the
total murders.


MURDER & NNM BY RELATIONSHIP:
-----------------------------
One of the most wrongfully used statistics used to support the argument
that keeping a personal defense is because "90% of the time it will end
up killing a loved one" (Dear Abby clipping from the San Jose Mercury
News, sorry, no date, but I estimate from the last 3 years).

From UCR[2] (page 11), for 1987 comes the following. The horizontal line
is the reason for the murder. The percentages are for that type of
murder circumstance. I.e., for all murder because of "love", 1.7% of the
victims were the husband of the murderer, 8.5% were the wives, and so
on.

Felony is because a felony (other than the murder itself) is involved.
I.e., a drug deal gone bad so one dealer shoots another.

SFelony is a suspected felony. I.e., the drug dealer that shot another
drug dealer won't say why, but the dead one has money and cocaine on his
body.

Love is romance, jealousy, and all that it entails.

$$$ is arguments over money and property.

Other is other arguments.

Misc is miscellaneous reasons. (A traffic accident escalates to a
shooting), but is of a non-felony type.

???? is unable to determine,.

VICTIM             Total  Felony  SFelony  Love  $$$$  Other  Misc  ????
-----------------  -----  ------  -------  ----  ----  -----  ----  ----
Husband             2.7%     .3%      0%   1.7%  1.7%   6.1%  2.5%   .7% 
Wife                5.2%     .3%      0%   8.5%  2.8%   8.7%  9.5%  1.8%
Mother               .6%     .1%      0%     0%  1.3%    .8%  1.3%   .4%
Father               .9%     .3%      0%     0%  2.1%   1.5%  1.4%   .3%
Daughter            1.3%     .7%      0%     0%    0%    .6%  5.0%   .5%
Son                 1.7%    1.0%      0%     0%   .6%   1.1%  6.2%   .3%
Brother             1.1%     .3%      0%    .8%  3.8%   2.2%   .8%   .5%
Sister               .3%     .2%      0%    .6%   .2%    .3%   .5%   .1%
Other family        2.7%    1.3%     .5%   1.4%  4.9%   4.4%  3.4%  1.0%
Acquaintances      30.0%   29.6%   10.9%  51.5% 46.7%  41.3% 32.9% 11.2%
Friend              5.3%    4.0%    3.5%  11.8% 17.4%   7.4%  6.0%  1.5%
Boyfriend           1.4%     .2%      0%   2.8%  1.5%   3.4%  1.0%   .2%
Girlfriend          2.3%     .3%     .5%   6.3%   .4%   4.6%  2.5%   .9%
Neighbor            1.4%    1.4%      0%    .6%  3.6%   2.0%  1.5%   .4%
Stranger           13.2%   30.9%   11.4%  10.7%  7.2%   9.2% 14.0%  4.8%
Relationship ???   29.6%   29.0%   73.3%   3.3%  5.7%   6.4% 11.6% 75.5%

The total percentage of murder by someone living in the same house is
16.5% of all murders (counting ALL family as living in the house, a
strong and certainly overstated assumption). Given the vast number of
guns cited previously, and the 48% "gun in house" rate (cited later),
the "90% of the time it will end up killing a loved one" assertion is
not valid. Lacking statistics as to where the murder occurred, it can
not be formally disproved. Alas.


MURDER & NNM BY CIRCUMSTANCE:
-----------------------------
Why does somebody murder someone? From UCR[2] (page 12), for 1987 we
have this data (again, this is the circumstance - a felony item is a
murder while you are commiting a felony - like holding up a bank and
killing a bank guard):

Total murders and NNM for 1987 ........................... 17,859
    Felony total .........................................  19.6%
        Robbery ..........................................   9.4%
        Narcotics ........................................   4.9%
        Sex offenses .....................................    .3%
        Arson ............................................    .9%
        Other felony .....................................   4.1%
    Suspected felony .....................................   1.1%
    Arguments ............................................  36.7%
        Romantic triangle ................................   2.0%
        Property or money ................................   2.6%
        Other arguments ..................................  32.0%
    Miscellaneous non-felony types (includes drunk/high) .  17.7%
    Unknown ..............................................  24.9%

Well, the war on drugs is going after assault rifles. Well, narcotics is
the reason for 4.9% of all murders.

Since rifles accounted for 772 murders of the 17,859 in 1987 (UCR[2],
page 10), that makes 4.3% of all murders where a rifle was the choice.

Assuming an even distribution of murder weapons across all murder
circumstances (not a safe assumption), then we have 0.21% of all
narcotics murders committed by rifles. This does bear out with the
reality of what has been reported on TV about the very very low numbers
of assault rifles seized by LA police from gang members.


MISCELLANEOUS MURDER STATISTICS (UCR[2], page 12)
-------------------------------------------------
Whites comprised 46 percent of the total arrestees for murder in 1987.
Blacks comprised 52 percent, with other races making up the difference.
The 18-24 year-old age group showed the greatest arrest percentage at
34%.


MISCELLANEOUS WEAPONS USED IN ROBBERY STATISTICS (UCR[2], page 18)
------------------------------------------------------------------
In 1987, firearms were used in robbery 33% of the time, with strongarm
used 43.5% of the time, knives 13.5% of the time, and other 9.9%.

In the Northeast, guns were used 25.3%, strongarm 45.6%, knives 17.0%,
and other 12%.

I.e., in NYC, I would say that for every 4 acts of robbery, a gun will
be used once, strongarm twice, and knives & other twice. Better register
those strongarms.


MISCELLANOUS "GUN CONTROL" STATISTIC (UCR[2], page 23)
------------------------------------------------------
The Northeast, with strongest gun control, firearms were used in
aggravated assault 14.9% of the time. In the West, with the least gun
control, they were used 17.7% of the time. In the Midwest and South,
with mixed (but growing) gun control, firearms were used 24.4% and 25.6%
of the time.

I don't see much a correlation.

Good news - firearms used in robberies has declined each and every year
from 1974 (45%) to 1986 (34%). Each and every year, strongarm has gone
up (34% in 1974 to 43% in 1986). Knives have held at a steady 12-14%.
During those years, total number of robberies has fluctated at 500,00,
+- 17%. CJS[1], page 341.


RESULTS OF POLLS
----------------
From CJS[1], page 167:
"Do you happen to have in your home or garage any guns or revolvers?"
Percentage answering yes:

    1973 .... 47%
    1974 .... 46%
    1976 .... 47%
    1977 .... 51%
    1980 .... 48%
    1982 .... 49%
    1984 .... 49%
    1985 .... 44%
    1987 .... 46%

Above data was made available to editors of CJS[1] by Roper Public
Opinion Research Center.

********

From CJS[1], page 170:
"Do you own that(those) firearm(s) for protection reasons or mainly for
recreational reasons?"

    Recreation .... 65%
    Protection .... 20%
    Both equally .. 12%
    No opinion ....  2%

Source to CJS[1] -- Peter Begans, ABC News-Washington Pst Poll, Survey
No. 181, Question 53, Jan 11-16, 1985.

********

From CSJ[1], page 171:
"Do you think people should have the right to shoot someone who breaks
into their home, even they don't know whether the person is armed?"

    Yes .......... 68%
    No ........... 24%
    No opinion ...  8%

********

From CSJ[2], page 173:
"Some communities have passed laws banning the sale and possesion of
handguns. Would you favor or oppose having such a law in this
city/community?"

                 Oppose  Favor  No Opinion
                 ------  -----  ----------
Total ...........  47%     47%      6%

Male ............  57%     39%      4%
Female ..........  38%     55%      7%
All gun owners...  64%     31%      5%
Handgun owners ..  71%     26%      3%
Nonowners .......  36%     58%      6%

26% of handgun owners want them banned? Something doesn't jell!

Source: George Gallup Jr., The Gallup Report, No.248, May 1986.


ARE THE 1987 FIGURES RELIABLE?
------------------------------
Yes, I think so. The California figures for 1988 do not show any major
or even medium increase or decreases in crimes, except for motor vehicle
thefts.

In California in 1988 (BCS[3], page 2):

Willful homicides ........  -0.2%
Forcible rape ............  -5.3%
Robbery ..................  +2.0%
Aggravated assault .......  +7.3%
Burglary .................  -3.3%
Motor vehicle theft ...... +15.0%  (!!!!)


In Los Angeles alone (BCS[3], page 6):

Willful homicides ........  -9.1%
Forcible rape ............  -7.5%
Robbery ..................     0%
Aggravated assault .......  +9.1%
Burglary .................  -3.7%
Motor vehicle theft ......   +.4%  

END OF PART 1
=============

I'll try to post part 2 (accident statistics) next week, and part 3 the week
after that. If you have any specific data that you think should be
included, drop me a line.



+-------------------------------------------------------+---------------------+
| Philip K. Ronzone   Manager Secure UNIX   pkr@sgi.COM | WORK=(415) 335-1511 |
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+-------------------------------------------------------+---------------------+


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                                     "I never vote, it only encourages 'em ..."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Article: 68489 of talk.politics.guns
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere?
Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:49:29 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 204
Message-ID: <26qb6p$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com>
References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8]

More statistics. I said in a previous posting that I would be posting parts 2
and 3. I've decided just to post various relevant statistics as fast as I
can compile and integrate them into meaningful formats. It has all turned out
to be a bigger task than I thought (although much more interesting than I
thought).

I'm trying to orient the postings to the relevant topics of discussion.
So I thought I'd post first on the overall trend in accidental deaths by
guns, then look at suicides, then try to get to the trend in South Caroline.

The following table is derived from three sources:

[4] U.S. Bureau of the Census, "Statistical Abstract of the United States: 1989
    (109th Edition).", Washington, DC, 1989. This is for sale by the
    Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office,
    Washington, DC  20402     (202) 783-3238

[5] U.S. Bureau of the Census, "Historical Statistics of the United States,
    Colonial Times to 1970, Bicentennial Edition, Part 2". Washington, DC 1975.
    This is for sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government
    Printing Office, Washington, DC  20402    (202) 783-3238
    Stock number 003-024-00120-9

[6] Statistics Department, National Safety Council. "Accidents Facts 1988
    Edition". National Safety Council.
    444 N. Michigan Avenue, Chicago IL  606111  (800) 621-7619


The specific parts refered to are: [1] page 7, [2] page 10, [3] pages 19-20.


ACCIDENTAL DEATHS BY FIREARM PER 1,000,000 PEOPLE (USA)
-------------------------------------------------------
The overall trend of accidental deaths by firearm in the United States
has been a steady decline since 1933 through 1986. The decline has been
on the order of 4 to 1! I.e., in 1933 we had 24.00 people accidentally
killed by firearms per 1,000,000 people, in 1986 we had 5.74 killed.

I have included the statistics to 1903, the earliest date I have figures
for. However, while these figures support the decline, they all end in 00
(2400, 2800, 2100) which leads me to suspect the accuracy.

In addition, a big drop in 1967 to 1968 (and the 1967 figures themselves)
reflect a change in how accidental deaths are reported. I have no further
reference other than that note in the source material. Based on some
descriptions of the data, it appears that some types of firearm deaths
in an unknown category were moved to murder/manslaughter (suspect freed
on a technicality ???? Your guess).

In any case, the data is outstandingly obvious that accidental deaths by
firearms are in a steady decline. I plotted the data using Microsoft Excel,
and extending the line (remarkably straight since 1946), I expect accidental
deaths by firearms to reach zero by the year 2013!!!

By all means, graph/plot the data. If any wants to, send me a SASE at the
address below and I'll put a copy of the graph in it and mail it back.

Now, I would have like to plot the annual production of firearms. However, I
only have firearms production from 1977 through 1985. Firearms production
has ranged (in those years) from 4.6 million to 5.7 million production. This
is DOMESTIC PRODUCTION ONLY.

I remember reading that (I'm trying to track this down), imports of foreign
semi-automatic rifles went from 30,000 in 1985 to over 800,000 in 1988. I
assume many of those are AK47S Chinese manufacture.

Thus, in the last four years we may have had a large increase to over 6 million
weapons produced/imported, yet the trend in accidental deaths is still going
down (especially sharply in the last four years).

I would thus assert that firearms are inherently safe devices, and that
whatever educational or other forces exist are reinforcing proper handling
of firearms.

One last note -- I'm still trying to figure out how many rounds of ammunition
are produced each year. It struck me that in almost every firearm purchase I've
seen in a gun store, the purchaser almost always buys a box of ammunition.

Thus, in 1984:
    Total handguns produced ... 1,679,709 * 50-round box of ammo = 83,985,450
    Total long guns produced .. 2,966,838 * 20-round box of ammo = 59,336,760

    gives 143,322,210 totals round (probably very low).

    If we assume that they were all expended, this gives us 85,924 rounds
    per each one of the 1,668 people accidently killed by guns in 1984.

    For something "just designed to kill", as I believe Mr. Shallit so
    erroneously asserted, that is one HECK of a lousy design!!!!



	TFAD    = Total Firearms Accidental Deaths
        TFAD/PM = Total Firearms Accidental Deaths Per Million

        Year     Population     TFAD    TFAD/PM
        ----     ----------     -----   -------
        1903     79,163,000     2,500    31.58
        1904     82,166,000     2,800    34.08
        1905     83,822,000     2,000    23.86
        1906     85,450,000     2,100    24.58
        1907     87,008,000     1,700    19.54
        1908     88,710,000     1,900    21.42
        1909     90,490,000     1,600    17.68
        1910     92,407,000     1,900    20.56
        1911     93,863,000     2,100    22.37
        1912     95,335,000     2,100    22.03
        1913     97,225,000     2,400    24.69
        1914     99,111,000     2,300    23.21
        1915    100,546,000     2,100    20.89
        1916    101,961,000     2,200    21.58
        1917    103,268,000     2,300    22.27
        1918    103,208,000     2,500    24.22
        1919    104,514,000     2,800    26.79
        1920    106,461,000     2,700    25.36
        1921    108,538,000     2,800    25.80
        1922    110,049,000     2,900    26.35
        1923    111,947,000     2,900    25.91
        1924    114,109,000     2,900    25.41
        1925    115,829,000     2,800    24.17
        1926    117,397,000     2,800    23.85
        1927    119,035,000     3,000    25.20
        1928    120,509,000     2,900    24.06
        1929    121,767,000     3,200    26.28
        1930    123,077,000     3,200    26.00
        1931    124,040,000     3,100    24.99
        1932    124,840,000     3,000    24.03
        1933    125,579,000     3,014    24.00
        1934    126,374,000     3,033    24.00
        1935    127,250,000     2,799    22.00
        1936    128,053,000     2,817    22.00
        1937    128,825,000     2,576    20.00
        1938    129,825,000     2,726    21.00
        1939    130,880,000     2,618    20.00
        1940    132,122,000     2,375    17.98
        1941    133,402,000     2,396    17.96
        1942    134,860,000     2,678    19.86
        1943    136,739,000     2,282    16.69
        1944    138,397,000     2,392    17.28
        1945    139,928,000     2,385    17.04
        1946    141,389,000     2,801    19.81
        1947    144,126,000     2,439    16.92
        1948    146,631,000     2,191    14.94
        1949    149,188,000     2,330    15.62
        1950    151,684,000     2,174    14.33
        1951    154,287,000     2,247    14.56
        1952    156,954,000     2,210    14.08
        1953    159,565,000     2,277    14.27
        1954    162,391,000     2,271    13.98
        1955    165,275,000     2,120    12.83
        1956    168,221,000     2,202    13.09
        1957    171,274,000     2,369    13.83
        1958    174,141,000     2,172    12.47
        1959    177,073,000     2,258    12.75
        1960    180,671,000     2,334    12.92
        1961    183,691,000     2,204    12.00
        1962    186,538,000     2,092    11.21
        1963    189,242,000     2,263    11.96
        1964    191,889,000     2,275    11.86
        1965    194,303,000     2,344    12.06
        1966    196,560,000     2,558    13.01
        1967    198,712,000     2,896    14.57
        1968    200,706,000     2,394    11.93
        1969    202,677,000     2,309    11.39
        1970    204,879,000     2,406    11.74
        1971    207,661,000     2,360    11.36
        1972    209,896,000     2,442    11.63
        1973    211,909,000     2,618    12.35
        1974    213,854,000     2,613    12.22
        1975    215,854,000     2,380    11.03
        1976    218,035,000     2,059     9.44
        1977    220,239,000     1,982     9.00
        1978    222,585,000     1,806     8.11
        1979    225,055,000     2,004     8.90
        1980    227,757,000     1,955     8.58
        1981    230,138,000     1,871     8.13
        1982    232,520,000     1,756     7.55
        1983    234,799,000     1,695     7.22
        1984    237,001,000     1,668     7.04
        1985    239,279,000     1,649     6.89
        1986    241,613,000     1,600     6.62
        1987    243,915,000     1,400     5.74




+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Socialism - like Fascism, Communism, and Botulism, sickens and kills men.   |
+-------------------------------------------------------+---------------------+
| Philip K. Ronzone   Manager Secure UNIX   pkr@sgi.COM | WORK=(415) 335-1511 |
| Silicon Graphics, Inc. MS 7U-550 {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr | (24 hour voicemail) |
| 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd., Mountain View, CA 94039-7311 | FAX= (415) 965-2658 |
+-------------------------------------------------------+---------------------+
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Ronzone   Manager Secure UNIX           pkr@sgi.COM   {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr
Silicon Graphics, Inc.               "I never vote, it only encourages 'em ..."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Nychka (rnychka@bnr.ca) wrote:

> Is there a FAQ for this group anywhere?  I am looking for statistics which 
> detail crime/murder rates with historical gun controls.

> RN!



Article: 68490 of talk.politics.guns
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere?
Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:49:44 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 489
Message-ID: <26qb78$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com>
References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8]

"Targeting the Children" (TIME, 6 November 1989 pg. 36. w/o permission)

One appalling result of America's fixation with firearms was disclosed
last week.  A study by the National Center for Health Statistics found
that 3,392 children ages 1 through 19 were killed in homicides,
suicides, and accidents with guns in 1987, accounting for 11% of
deaths in that age group.  No nation comes close to the U.S. in such
fatalities. In 1985 not a single teenage male was the victim of a
gun-related homicide in England or Sweden.

The most frequent victims of the U.S. carnage were black males age 15
to 19: 49.2 per 100,000 in this group died in 1987 from the homicidal
use of guns. Among whites, the rate was 5.1 per 100,000.  Said Health
and Human Services Secretary Louis Sullivan: "We are losing our youth
increasingly to injury and violence."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, let's take a look at these numbers, and the way TIME reported them.

NCHS says that 3392 people aged 1 - 19 either were killed, committed suicide,
or died in an accident by guns. Calling 18 and 19 year-olds "children" is
stretching it a bit. Does anyone know any 18 or 19 year-olds that like to
be "child"?

Homicides:
----------
Using data from the 1988 (released 6 August 1989) FBI Uniform Crime Reports
"Crime in the United States", I found the following data for 1988 murders:
(I know, TIME's number is from 1987, but this is for comparison purposes)
[Population data for 1987 from US Statistical Abstract]

	Age	   Population		Murders		   Rate
       Group	in this age group			per 100000
       -----	-----------------	-------		----------
      1 -  4	   18,252,000(*)	    44	   	   0.24
      5 -  9	   17,661,000	            56		   0.32
     10 - 14	   16,485,000		   136		   0.82
     15 - 19	   18,497,000		  1292		   6.98

Total 1 - 19	   70,895,000		  1528		   2.16

(*) - Includes infants less than 1 year of age.
==========================================================================
First off, of the murders in this group, almost 85% are in the 15-19 group.
Hardly the image TIME presents of thousands of little kids killed by guns.
Also, TIME notes that the rate for black males 15 - 19 is 49.2 per 100,000, 
and for whites (assuming white males, as opposed to all 15 - 19 whites) is
5.1 per 100,000. Let's find out how many deaths that is:

		Rate		Population		Number
		----		----------		------
Black 		49.2		 1,406,000		  692
White		 5.1		 7,664,000		  391

Total		12.02		 9,070,000		 1083

===========================================================================
So, of the 1528 homicides of people 1 - 19, fully 45.2% are teen black
males, 25.6% are white teen males. These two groups comprise almost 71%
of all homicide victims in this group.


Suicides:
---------
From the US Statistical Abstract, the rates (and the numbers I derived) for
suicides, all causes, are as follows (ages under 10 were not even listed):

	Age		Rate		Population	Number
      -------		----		----------	------
      10 - 14		 1.5		16,485,000	  247
      15 - 19		10.2		18,497,000	 1886

Total 10 - 19		 6.1		34,982,000	 2133

Let's break this down by sex and age (you'll see why in a minute):

       Group			Rate	Population	Number
       -----			----	----------	------
White   male 10 - 14		 1.1	 6,803,000	   75
White   male 15 - 19		18.2	 7,664,000	 1395
Black   male 10 - 14		 1.5	 1,314,000	   20
Black   male 15 - 19		 7.1	 1,406,000	  100

Males,       10 - 19		 9.3	17,187,000	 1590

White female 10 - 14		 0.7	 6,442,000	   45
White female 15 - 19		 4.1     7,350,000	  301
Black female 10 - 14		 0.4     1,275,000          5
Black female 15 - 19		 2.1     1,384,000	   29

Females,     10 - 19		 2.3	16,451,000	  380

Total				 5.9	33,638,000	 1970
===========================================================================
Now, this data is for *all methods* of suicide, not just firearms. There is
another table that gives method by sex, as follows:

Firearms used,   male:		64.1%
Firearms used, female:		39.5%

Taking these percentages as approximations for the 10 - 19 age group, we get

Group  			Number		By firearm
---------------   	------		----------
Males   10 - 19	    	 1590		   1020
Females 10 - 19		  380		    150
===========================================================================
This gives a total of 1170 deaths for ages 10 - 19 (and 1 - 19, I assume) 
for suicides committed with firearms.


Accidents:
----------
Now, let's look at accidents involving guns in the 1 - 19 age group. I don't
have data handy (I did this at home from my own materials) that shows firearm
accidents for different age, race, and sex groups. However, in 1986, from
the US Statistical Abstract, the death rate from firearms accidents was
0.6 per 100,000 for the whole US. Using this as an approximation for this
age group, we find that about 425 people aged 1 - 19 in this group were killed
in accidents involving firearms. However, subtracting suicides and homicides
from the total number of deaths leaves 694 deaths. (3392 - (1170 + 1528)).
So, I'll take the higher number, just to get the numbers to work.

Summary:
--------

	Deaths				Percentage
					 of total
        ------				----------
   	   691 black males 15 - 19	   20.37
   	   391 white males 15 - 19	   11.53
	 -----				   -----
	 1,082 males 15 - 19		   31.90
	 -----
	 1,528 homicides total		   45.05
	 1,170 suicides			   34.49
	   694 accidents		   20.46

	 3,392 total			  100.00
===========================================================================
So, about 1/5 of the "children" killed by guns are black teen males 15 to
19 years old. Can you say "drugs"? Add in white teen males, and we get
almost a 1/3 of all "children" killed by guns in the 15 - 19 age group.

Despite claims from others on the NET, the NRA spokesman (still unknown)
was essentially correct in pointing out that a major chunk is taken by
these aggressive black and white teenage males.

Also, about 35% of that 3,392 number is suicides, and of that 35%, most
is suicides by white males 15 - 19. 


I think that the way this has been presented by the media is atrocious.
However, I am not surprised, given the omnipresent anti-gun hysteria
the media has.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Gary Strand (I'm the SAF!)          "The people never give up their liberties
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu               but under some delusion." - Edmund Burke

From pkr@maddog.sgi.com Fri Nov  3 12:32:17 1989
Relay-Version: version Notes 2.8.2  87/11/24; site hprnd.HP.COM
From: pkr@maddog.sgi.com (Phil Ronzone)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1989 20:32:17 GMT
Date-Received: Mon, 6 Nov 1989 05:07:33 GMT
Subject: STATISTICS 3 (long)
Message-ID: <1240@odin.SGI.COM>
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
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Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
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Reply-To: pkr@maddog.sgi.com (Phil Ronzone)
Lines: 317

I promised a few weeks back to post research on some of the basic issues
of guns and gun controls. Some of the information I have posted before,
but I haved finished the main part now, a study of guns and the murder rate.

I have asked four questions --

1. In murders, are guns becoming more the weapon of use, staying the same,
   or becoming less?

2. Is the per capita murder rate rising, staying the same, or dropping?

3. Is the per capita accidental death by gun rate rising, staying the same,
   or dropping?

4. Is the murder rate tied to the number of guns? I.e., is the number of
   murders per "gun-capita" going up, staying the same, or declining?

   In other words, if "guns cause crime", then the more guns per capita
   you have, the more crime per capita you should have.


******************************************************************************
THE ANSWERS

1. NO CHANGE IN USE OF GUNS AS A MURDER WEAPON FOR OVER 60 YEARS.
   The ratio of murder weapons (guns, knives, fists/beating, etc.) to
   each other has remained identical to one another from 1910 to 1988.
   The variation is very small, especially when viewed graphically.

2. PER CAPITA MURDER RATE IS DROPPING.
   The per capita murder rate peaked at an all time high in 1933 (62
   per 1,000,000), and then dropped slowly to 23 in 1957. It began
   rising again (in the "Love In Decade") to a high of 59 in 1980, with
   the sharpest increase coming in the 1966-1969 period (the Gun Control
   Act of 1968 happened then) and is now dropping back down again to 45
   in 1988.

3. ACCIDENTAL DEATHS BY GUNS STEADILY DECLINING.
   Accidental deaths by firearms have been consistently dropping, and
   will reach zero at the current rate (the slope of the last 30 years)
   around the year 2018.

4. MURDER RATE BY GUNS DECLINING. *** WARNING -- EXTRAPOLATION ***
   These figures are extrapolated from incomplete records and assumptions
   of steady per capita new gun production rates.

   Without an accurate count of the number of existing guns per year,
   these figures must be treated very carefully. I have erred on the VERY
   LOW side of guns-in-existence per year figures -- I may as much as a
   factor of four too low!

   The US is adding 4,600,000 new guns each year, losing 1,760,000 (1% of
   a 1988 base of 176,000,000 guns), leaving a net gain of ~3,500,000 guns.
   In that same year, we added about 2,200,000 people. I.e., our gun
   propulation is growing faster than our human population.

   The number of people murdered by guns, per the total number of guns
   in existence each year, is DECLINING betweenn 1.6% and 3.1% per year.
   In spreadsheet simulations, the last ten years (for which accurate
   gun production figures are know) have shown a 2.7% decline each year
   on the average.

   I THEREFORE STATE, AS SPECULATION NOT FACT, THAT MURDERS PER GUN
   ARE DECLINING 2.5% EACH YEAR, AND MAYBE AS MUCH AS 6.9%.

******************************************************************************
THE RAW NUMBERS

The following is the best representation I can make with a text only graph.
This graph is of total murders from 1910 through 1988. The horizontal axis
is years (1910 to 1988), and the vertical axis is murders per 1,000,000.

There is a peak in the 1930's. I assume this is the Depression and
Prohibition.

There are sharp drops during WWII and Vietnam (the early years).

There is a sharp increase in 1967 -- the data collection methods changed
and the references all warn that the data is NOT comparable to earlier
years. It appears that more efficient data collection methods started then.

What is MOST amazing is something I can't show here. This chart is produced
from a database that breaks down murders by firearms, strangling, fists,
poison, knives, etc.

The total murder curve shown below is identical with the murder by guns,
murder by knives, etc. curves! I.e., the same proportion of weapons is used
to kill, regardless of the per capita murder rate.

I use Microsoft Excel 2.2 to do the plots -- it's eerie to see the matching
curves. If you have a plotting spreadsheet, try it yourself, or send a SASE
to me at 22330 Homestead Rd. No. 226, Cupertino, CA, 95014, and I'll send you
a copy of the plot on paper. The following chart was done by hand.


                       +
                      ++                                             +       
                    +++ +                                     ++   +  ++     
                 ++       +                               ++++  ++      + +  
             +             +                           ++                + + 
          +                   +    +++                 +                    +
        + +                     + +   +              +                       |
      +                                    ++++++++                          |
   |                                                                         |
   |                                                                         |
   |                                                                         |
   |                                                                         |
   ===========================================================================                                                                         




ADBF    = Accidental Deaths By Firearm
TM      = Total Murders
TMBF    = Total Murders By Firearm
TMNBF   = Total Murders NOT By Firearm
ADBF1M  = Accidental Deaths By Firearm per 1,000,000
MBF1M   = Murders By Firearm per 1,000,000
MNBF1M  = Murders NOT By Firearm per 1,000,000



YEAR   POPULATION    ADBF     TM        TMBF   TMNBF   ADBF1M  MBF1M   MNBF1M
----   -----------   -----   -------   -----   ------  ------  ------  ------          
1905    83,822,000   2,000                             23.86      
1906    85,450,000   2,100                             24.58      
1907    87,008,000   1,700                             19.54      
1908    88,710,000   1,900                             21.42      
1909    90,490,000   1,600                             17.68      
1910    92,407,000   1,900    2,161    1,174     987   20.56   12.70   10.68
1911    93,863,000   2,100    2,978    1,743   1,235   22.37   18.57   13.16
1912    95,335,000   2,100    2,938    1,775   1,163   22.03   18.62   12.20
1913    97,225,000   2,400    3,521    2,123   1,398   24.69   21.84   14.38
1914    99,111,000   2,300    3,776    2,366   1,410   23.21   23.87   14.23
1915   100,546,000   2,100    3,633    2,213   1,420   20.89   22.01   14.12
1916   101,961,000   2,200    4,237    2,708   1,529   21.58   26.56   15.00
1917   103,268,000   2,300    4,864    3,205   1,659   22.27   31.04   16.06
1918   103,208,000   2,500    5,113    3,475   1,638   24.22   33.67   15.87
1919   104,514,000   2,800    5,973    4,247   1,726   26.79   40.64   16.51
1920   106,461,000   2,700    5,815    4,178   1,637   25.36   39.24   15.38
1921   108,538,000   2,800    7,090    5,178   1,912   25.80   47.71   17.62
1922   110,049,000   2,900    7,381    5,430   1,951   26.35   49.34   17.73
1923   111,947,000   2,900    7,557    5,422   2,135   25.91   48.43   19.07
1924   114,109,000   2,900    8,014    5,736   2,278   25.41   50.27   19.96
1925   115,829,000   2,800    8,440    5,908   2,532   24.17   51.01   21.86
1926   117,397,000   2,800    8,740    6,035   2,705   23.85   51.41   23.04
1927   119,035,000   3,000    8,997    6,004   2,993   25.20   50.44   25.14
1928   120,509,000   2,900    9,780    6,668   3,112   24.06   55.33   25.82
1929   121,767,000   3,200    9,637    6,362   3,275   26.28   52.25   26.90
1930   123,077,000   3,200   10,331    6,995   3,336   26.00   56.83   27.10
1931   124,040,000   3,100   10,862    7,335   3,527   24.99   59.13   28.43
1932   124,840,000   3,000   10,722    7,252   3,470   24.03   58.09   27.80
1933   125,579,000   3,014   12,124    7,863   4,261   24.00   62.61   33.93
1934   126,374,000   3,033   12,055    7,702   4,353   24.00   60.95   34.45
1935   127,250,000   2,799   10,587    6,506   4,081   22.00   51.13   32.07
1936   128,053,000   2,817   10,232    6,016   4,216   22.00   46.98   32.92
1937   128,825,000   2,576    9,811    5,701   4,110   20.00   44.25   31.90
1938   129,825,000   2,726    8,799    5,055   3,744   21.00   38.94   28.84
1939   130,880,000   2,618    8,394    4,799   3,595   20.00   36.67   27.47
1940   132,122,000   2,375    8,329    4,655   3,674   17.98   35.23   27.81
1941   133,402,000   2,396    8,048    4,525   3,523   17.96   33.92   26.41
1942   134,860,000   2,678    7,890    4,204   3,686   19.86   31.17   27.33
1943   136,739,000   2,282    6,823    3,444   3,379   16.69   25.19   24.71
1944   138,397,000   2,392    6,675    3,449   3,226   17.28   24.92   23.31
1945   139,928,000   2,385    7,547    4,029   3,518   17.04   28.79   25.14
1946   141,389,000   2,801    8,913    4,966   3,947   19.81   35.12   27.92
1947   144,126,000   2,439    8,708    4,922   3,786   16.92   34.15   26.27
1948   146,631,000   2,191    8,654    4,894   3,760   14.94   33.38   25.64
1949   149,188,000   2,330    7,756    4,235   3,521   15.62   28.39   23.60
1950   151,684,000   2,174    7,660    4,179   3,481   14.33   27.55   22.95
1951   154,287,000   2,247    7,268    3,898   3,370   14.56   25.26   21.84
1952   156,954,000   2,210    7,798    4,244   3,554   14.08   27.04   22.64
1953   159,565,000   2,277    7,385    4,013   3,372   14.27   25.15   21.13
1954   162,391,000   2,271    7,491    4,115   3,376   13.98   25.34   20.79
1955   165,275,000   2,120    7,191    3,807   3,384   12.83   23.03   20.47
1956   168,221,000   2,202    7,403    4,039   3,364   13.09   24.01   20.00
1957   171,274,000   2,369    7,413    4,010   3,403   13.83   23.41   19.87
1958   174,141,000   2,172    7,586    4,230   3,356   12.47   24.29   19.27
1959   177,073,000   2,258    7,932    4,457   3,475   12.75   25.17   19.62
1960   180,671,000   2,334    8,219    4,627   3,592   12.92   25.61   19.88
1961   183,691,000   2,204    8,341    4,753   3,588   12.00   25.87   19.53
1962   186,538,000   2,092    8,826    4,954   3,872   11.21   26.56   20.76
1963   189,242,000   2,263    8,979    5,126   3,853   11.96   27.09   20.36
1964   191,889,000   2,275    9,536    5,474   4,062   11.86   28.53   21.17
1965   194,303,000   2,344   10,441    6,158   4,283   12.06   31.69   22.04
1966   196,560,000   2,558   11,308    6,855   4,453   13.01   34.87   22.65
1967   198,712,000   2,896   13,038    8,332   4,706   14.57   41.93   23.68
1968   200,706,000   2,394   14,336    9,425   4,911   11.93   46.96   24.47
1969   202,677,000   2,309   15,123   10,174   4,949   11.39   50.20   24.42
1970   204,879,000   2,406   16,515   11,213   5,302   11.74   54.73   25.88
1971   207,661,000   2,360   16,183   10,680   5,503   11.36   51.43   26.50
1972   209,896,000   2,442   16,192   10,739   5,453   11.63   51.16   25.98
1973   211,909,000   2,618   17,123   11,249   5,874   12.35   53.08   27.72
1974   213,854,000   2,613   18,632   12,474   6,158   12.22   58.33   28.80
1975   215,854,000   2,380   18,642   12,061   6,581   11.03   55.88   30.49
1976   218,035,000   2,059   16,605   10,592   6,013    9.44   48.58   27.58
1977   220,239,000   1,982   18,033   11,274   6,759    9.00   51.19   30.69
1978   222,585,000   1,806   18,714   11,910   6,804    8.11   53.51   30.57
1979   225,055,000   2,004   20,591   13,040   7,551    8.90   57.94   33.55
1980   227,757,000   1,955   21,860   13,650   8,210    8.58   59.93   36.05
1981   230,138,000   1,871   20,053   12,523   7,530    8.13   54.42   32.72
1982   232,520,000   1,756   20,031   12,513   7,518    7.55   53.81   32.33
1983   234,799,000   1,695   18,673   10,895   7,778    7.22   46.40   33.13
1984   237,001,000   1,668   17,260   10,175   7,085    7.04   42.93   29.89
1985   239,279,000   1,649   17,545   10,296   7,249    6.89   43.03   30.30
1986   241,613,000   1,600   19,257   11,381   7,876    6.62   47.10   32.60
1987   243,915,000   1,400   17,859   10,556   7,303    5.74   43.28   29.94
1988   246,113,000           18,269   11,084   7,185           45.04   29.19


******************************************************************************
NUMBERS OF FIREARMS MANUFACTURED IN THE UNITED STATES

CJS87 has data for firearms manufacture from 1977 through 1984. The starting
and ending years are consistent with the intermediate years (although 1980
and 1981 saw a total of 5.6 and 5.7 million guns total). These figures do NOT
include firearms manufactured for the military AND do NOT include imports
(TV news claims over 800,000 AK47 rifles imported in 1988). 

1977 Total guns ........... 4,904,422
         Total handguns ... 1,879,645
             Pistols ......   452,667
             Revolvers .... 1,426,978
         Total long guns .. 3,024,777
             Rifles ....... 1,839,925
             Shotguns ..... 1,184,852

1984 Total guns ........... 4,651,477
       Total handguns ...   1,679,709
         Pistols ......       752,919
         Revolver .....       926,790
       Total long guns ..   2,966,838
         Rifles .........   1,622,890
          Shotguns .......   1,860,077

This gives us a figure of one new gun produced per 47 people per year.

Guns for the most part do not wear out. In Shotgun News, there are a great
many advertisements for rifles and pistols made in 1917, 1903, 1910, etc.

Based on police confiscation records (most confiscated guns are destroyed),
informal figures from gun stores that provide gun smith services, a HIGH
figure would be that every year, much less than 1% of all guns are destroyed,
lost, or otherwise permanently "gone".

Note that 1% of all guns is 1,700,000 in 1988!!

I think it is MUCH less than 1%, but, we'll use that for now.

Assuming a per capita production rate of 1 new gun every year per 47
people, and a 1% of ALL guns lost each year, AND a FALSE assumption of ZERO
guns existing in 1910, the U.S. now has 176,000,000 guns.

REMEMBER - we're adding 4,600,000 new guns each year, losing 1,700,000,
           leaving a net gain of 3,500,000 guns. In that same year,
           we added about 2,200,000 people.

Thus, there were 17,094 guns for each murder in 1987, and 17,433 guns
for each murder in 1988. The plot shows a slowly declining sine wave
of a 1.2% to 3.1% INCREASE in guns for each person killed (per year).

******************************************************************************
REFERENCES

BCS88  The California Department of Justice, Division of Law Enforcement,
       Criminal Identification and Information Branch, Bureau of Criminal
       Statistics and Special Services, BCS Outlook Crime 1988 in Selected
       California Law Enforcement Jurisdictions, January through December,
       March 1989.

BCS89  The California Department of Justice, Division of Law Enforcement,
       Criminal Identification and Information Branch, Bureau of Criminal
       Statistics and Special Services, BCS Outlook Crime 1989 in Selected
       California Law Enforcement Jurisdictions, January through June,
       August 1989.

BOC75  U.S. Bureau of the Census, Historical Statistics of the United States,
       Colonial Times to 1970, Bicentennial Edition, Part 2, Washington,
       DC, 1975.

BOC82  U.S. Bureau of the Census, Statistical Abstract of the United States:
       1982-83. (103th edition.) Washington, DC, 1982 [sic].

BOC89  U.S. Bureau of the Census, Statistical Abstract of the United States:
       1989 (109th edition.) Washington, DC, 1989.

CJS83  United States Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics,
       Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics, 1983.

CJS87  United States Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics,
       Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics, 1987.

NSC88  National Safety Council, Accident Facts 1988 Edition, Chicago, IL,
       1988. Available via Customer Service, National Service Council,
       444 N. Michigan Ave., Chicago, Illinois 60611. (800) 621-7619.

UCR82  U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation,
       Uniform Crime Reports 1982.

UCR85  U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation,
       Uniform Crime Reports 1985.

UCR87  U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation,
       Uniform Crime Reports 1987.

******************************************************************************
All calculations done by Microsoft Excel 2.2 on a Macintosh II. For a
copy of the Execl spreadsheet, send an 800K NEW UNFORMATTED FLOPPY with a
return, postage pre-paid mailer to: 22330 Homestead Rd. No. 226,
                                    Cupertino, CA, 95014
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Ronzone   Manager Secure UNIX           pkr@sgi.COM   {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr
Silicon Graphics, Inc.               "I never vote, it only encourages 'em ..."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Article: 68491 of talk.politics.guns
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere?
Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:49:57 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 126
Message-ID: <26qb7l$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com>
References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8]

BAD MEDICINE KILLS MORE PEOPLE THAN ARE MURDERED?
-------------------------------------------------
There have been recent postings on how the CDC (Center for Disease Control)
has (apparently) added firearms to the "diseases" list. From what I have
read, it seems like pure HCBH (or whatever) propaganda.

Could it be that bad doctors and bad hospitals are more of a killer
than forearms?

A recent (31-dec-89) CNN report on medicine stated that "surgical
excursions" killed more people than firearms in 1988. A "surgical
excursion" is when something happens that SHOULD not and that could
have been prevented. I.e., this is NOT an unexpected reaction to
penicillin but: the wrong medicine was given, the physician made
a mistake, the blood given was the wrong type and so.

I'm REALLY researching this one (well, CDC?), and what I have so far:

Homicides per 100,000 in 1987 ........................  8.9
"Symptoms, signs, ill-defined conditions" in 1987 .... 13.7

The cause of deaths for 1987 is where I got the "Symptoms, signs,
ill-defined conditions" category. All the other medical terms were
such things as meningitis, viral hepatitis, 8 categroies of heart disease,
ulcers, hernias, and so on, and then the strangely named
"Symptoms, signs, ill-defined conditions". My research librarian says it
covers the "doctors or hospitals made a boo-boo" category.

I'm still researching, but these facts seem solid enough to post now.

SOURCE: The World Almanac Consumer Information Series, 1990.







Information in the rest of this posting comes from:

Report to the Nation on Crime and Justice, Second Edition, U.S.
Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, NCJ-105506,
March 1988.


HOW DO PEOPLE PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM CRIME?
--------------------------------------------
There has been debate of how much (if any!?) crime has been prevented by
owning a firearm.

The following figures are based on the BJS National Crime Survey,
1979-85, and are reported as follows. Note that only victims reporting
sucessful prevention are reported (i.e., no homicide figures).

The percent figure is the percentage of the victimizations that were
PREVENTED.

A weapon was used or brandished ... 3% in  1,206,755 rapes ----->     36,202
A weapon was used or brandished ... 4% in  8,484,516 robberies ->    339,380
A weapon was used or brandished ... 4% in 36,269,845 assaults -->  1,450,793
                                                                   ---------
                                                                   1,826,375

Seems to me that 1.8 million violent victimizations speak pretty highly of
weapons use and brandishing.



VICTIM-OFFENDER RELATIONSHIP FOR HOMICIDES, ASSAULTS, ROBBERIES
---------------------------------------------------------------
Again, most murder victims are NOT relatives!!

              Homicide  Robbery  Assault
	      --------  -------  -------
Strangers     18%       75%      51%
Acquaintance  39%       17%      35%
Relative      18%        4%       4%
Unknown       26%        4%       4%



WEAPONS INVOLVED IN CRIME
-------------------------
For 1985, for robbery and assaults, the following is how
many incidents involved a firearm and how many involved a knife.

          Robbery  Assault
	  -------  -------
Firearm   23%      12%
Knife     21%      10%

What is MOST interesting is that in robbery and assaults, a gun was
ACTUALLY fired and hit the victim ONLY 4% of the time in all incidents
in 1985! Yet victims were actually stabbed in 10% in the knives incidents.

I.e., for robbery and assaults, it will be about even the number of times
a gun is used or a knife is used, yet if a knife is used, you will be
TWICE as likely to be stabbed as to be shot.

A quote from page 21: "When guns are present victims are less likely to
be injured than if the offender is armed with a knife or other weapon
because guns are often used to coerce the victim into compliance,
according to the NCS".


INTERESTING QUOTES
------------------
Page 14: "The percentage of households touched by crime has declined over
the past 10 years ... from 32% of households [touched by crime] to 25% of
all households ... personal larceny from 16% to 12%, burglary from 8% to 5%.

Page 15: A beautiful picture (of a graph) showing the decline in per capita
homcides since 1980. For those that haven't plotted the stats in STATISTICS1-3,
you can see it right here.

FUTURE
------
I'm still constructing a large database to try and use for disputing the
"gun control reduces gun crime" assertion.


--- end of statistics 4 ---
------Me and my dyslexic keyboard----------------------------------------------
Phil Ronzone   Manager Secure UNIX           pkr@sgi.COM   {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr
Silicon Graphics, Inc.               "I never vote, it only encourages 'em ..."
-----In honor of Minas, no spell checker was run on this posting---------------


Article: 68492 of talk.politics.guns
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere?
Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:50:28 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <26qb8k$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com>
References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8]

>In article <1034@telesci.UUCP> cciolori@telesci.UUCP (Christopher Ciolorito) writes:
>Is a criminal(or other violent type) going to be more likely to 
>try to strangle someone, or stab them, etc.. or is he going to stand
>20 meters away, fire a shot and run? Believe me, most criminals are
>cowards, if they had to face one-to-one a person they wanted to kill
>they would think ten times before doing it!


I posted a factual rebuttal to this early and it won't kill.
The earlier data was for areas of california (wrong file).

The better data follows:




An implication here is that without guns, murders would be "harder" or
more difficult to commit, and hence there should be fewer murders.

This is clearly not the case.

On a per-capita basis, some of the higher muder rates are in areas
of very strong gun control (Northeast US, Washington DC, NYX, Mass.
etc.).

And gun control does have an effect! It does NOT reduce the murder rate.
It DOES shift the murder rate to knives, fists, etc.



[1] U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics,
    "Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics 1987". Release date of
    August, 1988 Copies may be obtained (if unavailable in your library) 
    from (price unknown):

        Justice Statistics Clearinghouse/NCJRS
        U.S. Department of Justice
        User Services Department 2
        Box 6000
        Rockville, MD  20850

    This is an extremely comprehensive book. Just about any statistic, 
    broken down by all kinds of factors (race, religion, rural .vs. 
    suburban, big .vs. little city, and so on).

MURDER & NON-NEGLIGENT MANSLAUGHTER, WEAPONS USED
-------------------------------------------------
Data from CSJ[1] (page 337), which in turn credits major parts of
UCR[2]. Guns include all firearms. Knives include all cutting and
stabbing objects (broken bottles etc.), fists include hands, feet and
all body parts, other include drowning, arson, poison, explosives,
narcotices, asphyxiation, etc. Each column is a percentage of the total.
CSJ has statistics from 1964 through 1986.

      Guns   Knives  Clubs  Fists  Other  Unknown  Total murders & NNH
      ----   ------  -----  -----  -----  -------  -------------------
1964   55%      24%     5%    10%     3%       2%       7,990
1974   67%      17%     5%     8%     1%       1%      18,632
1986   59%      20%     6%     9%     2%       4%      19,257

What is most interesting is that murder by guns climbs from 55% in 1964
to 67% in 1974, and then climbs back down to 59% in 1986. When plotted,
it is a classic Gaussian curve. Matching the climb in the first half of
the curve is the total number of murders, coming close to tripling by
1974, then remaining more or less flat from 1974 on.

There is also strong regional bias. In 1986 (CSJ[1], page 337):

           Guns    Knives  Unknown/other/clubs  Fists
           -----   ------  -------------------  -----
Northeast  49.4%    24.2%               12.4%   12.0%
Midwest    60.4%    19.3%               14.6%    5.7%
South      64.3%    18.4%               12.5%    4.8%
West       54.8%    21.7%               15.4%    8.0%

I would perhaps conclude that the strong anti-gun laws in the Northwest
(Ney York City, Boston, Washington DC) is responsible for the highest
use of knives for murder as well as the VERY high use of fists (12%
!!!). It should be noted in the above table that strangulation is moved
from "fists" to "unknown/other" (CSJ[1] note, page 337).




------Me and my dyslexic keyboard----------------------------------------------
Phil Ronzone   Manager Secure UNIX           pkr@sgi.COM   {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr
Silicon Graphics, Inc.               "I never vote, it only encourages 'em ..."
-----In honor of Minas, no spell checker was run on this posting---------------


Article: 68493 of talk.politics.guns
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere?
Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:50:46 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <26qb96$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com>
References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8]

                       STATISTICS ON POLICE DEATHS


One of the reasons always given as a justification for gun control laws is
the number of police officers killed. This prompted me to look at the
available data.

The FBI Uniform Crime Reports - Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted
show 828 officers feloniously killed in the line of duty from 1980 through
1989. For 1988, the last year for which data are presently available, there
were 78 officers feloniously killed in the line of duty and another 77 killed
by on the job accidents, primarily traffic accidents. The 1988 statistics are
typical for the ten year period.

These numbers are nationwide totals for sworn officers. They average together
both high risk urban areas and rural areas. Unfortunately, WITH SUCH A SMALL
SAMPLE SIZE, its questionable that any further breakdown is useful.

So, we have:
			Number of	Number of	Deaths per
			Workers(1000's)	Deaths		100,000

    Police officers	   550		  155		  28

Let's put this in perspective with some other industries. These figures are
from the National Safety Council Accident Facts, 1989 edition.

			Number of	Number of	Deaths per
			Workers(1000's)	Deaths		100,000

    Police officers	   550		  155		  28
    Agriculture, Farming,
	Fishing		 3,100		1,500		  48
    Mining, Quarrying	   800		  200		  25
    Construction	 6,500          2,200		  34
    Transportation,
	Public Utilities 5,800		1,400		  24



Expanding the search to include any on the job death or injury resulting in
days away from work gives these figures for 1987. These numbers are per 100
full time employees per year. Part time employees are factored in based on
hours worked.

			    Injuries per
    Industry		    100 workers
    -------------------------------------
    Police		     2.37
    Fire protection	     5.36
    Agriculture		     4.19
    Construction	     2.93
    Sawmills		     5.02
    Shipbuilding	     4.20
    Newspapers		     3.53
    Trucking		    17.55


Summary:
    As far as on the job death and injuries, being a police officer is about
as dangerous as being a miner or a utility worker. And a lot less dangerous
working in a sawmill, being a farmer, being a construction worker, or being a
long haul truck driver.
 


Article: 68494 of talk.politics.guns
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere?
Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:51:03 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 110
Message-ID: <26qb9n$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com>
References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8]

RKBA.000 - What the RKBA.nnn postings are all about
           Version 1.3 (last changed on 90/05/10 at 19:56:32)

INTRODUCTION
============
The RKBA.nnn series are a (hopefully) growing set of small (60-100 lines 
typically) postings that address common questions and myths about all 
aspects of firearms. It is posted to talk.politics.guns on a regular 
basis (yet to be determined as to what is appropriate).

One of the problems with many debates in talk.politics.guns is the 
repeated occurrence of an issue. No sooner is the myth of "cop killer 
bullets" refuted than a week later it crops up again from a new poster.

These postings will (I hope) serve as both quick "fact sheets" for 
rebuttal and as general guides for information in the fight for the 
right to keep and bear arms.

I have generated a list of about thirty RKBA.nnn postings on topics that 
I have seen come up repeatedly in talk.politics.guns in the last six 
months.

I have enough facts and research on hand to do about twenty or so of 
them right off the bat. The first thirteen are listed below. I will be 
posting them all thirteen of them in the next ten days.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RKBA.000 - What the RKBA.nnn postings are all about
RKBA.001 - Accidental deaths by firearms and by other means
RKBA.002 - Declining trend of accidental deaths by firearms
RKBA.003 - Homicide per capita in the US
RKBA.004 - Children and firearms
RKBA.005 - Myth of "cop killer" ammunition
RKBA.006 - Myth of "plastic guns"
RKBA.007 - About assault rifles
RKBA.008 - Annual firearm manufacture in the United States
RKBA.009 - Households owning a firearm
RKBA.010 - Declaration of Independence
RKBA.011 - The Constitution of the United States of America
RKBA.012 - Switzerland and firearms
RKBA.013 - Trend in weapons use for robberies (1974-86)
RKBA.014 - Reasons for homicide and non-negligent manslaughter
               *** and more to come ***
RKBA.999 - Complete list of all sources


ADDITIONAL RKBA.nnn POSTINGS
============================
I will create and post them as needed. I solicit recommendations and 
help and above, references and other hard facts. Send suggestions to:

                              pkr@sgi.com

COPYRIGHT
=========
Copyright 1990 by Philip K. Ronzone. Permission to use any and all of the RKBA.nnn
postings as long as this copyright is included. Excerpts for net postings may omit
the copyright notice.

Please don't repost any RKBA.nnn posting with any changes 
unless you let me know first. I doublecheck all the information and keep 
track of the sources. Changes can cause doubt to be shed on the validity 
of the RKBA.nnn postings.

While I may state my opinions in a RKBA.nnn posting, it will clearly be 
an opinion (such as "conclusion" or "interpretation"). The facts will be facts 
however.

Otherwise, redistribute as you will.


SOURCES
=======
All sources referenced have been moved out of RKBA.000 and are now listed in 
RKBA.999.


ARCHIVE
=======
I am indebted to Jonathan Kamens for providing an archive service:

  >Phil,
  >
  >  I will be archiving your RKBA postings on my workstation,
  >pit-manager.mit.edu (18.72.1.58), as I see them appearing in
  >talk.politics.guns.  They will be available for anonymous ftp in
  >/ftp/pub/rkba.  Furthermore, since my workstation exports NFS, other
  >sites that are equipped for NFS client access can mount the directory
  >pit-manager.mit.edu:/site/mit/ftp/pub/rkba to gain access to them.
  >
  >  Feel free to forward this message to talk.politics.guns, and to
  >wherever else you feel might be appropriate (please let me know to
  >where you forward it if you forward it anywhere other than t.p.g).
  >
  >Jonathan Kamens                               USnail:
  >MIT Project Athena                              11 Ashford Terrace
  >jik@Athena.MIT.EDU                              Allston, MA  02134
  >Office: 617-253-8495                          Home: 617-782-0710

Thank you very much, Jonathan.

-end-
--
<---------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Philip K. Ronzone                  S e c u r e   U N I X           pkr@sgi.com
Silicon Graphics, Inc. MS 9U-500                           work (415) 335-1511
2011 N. Shoreline Blvd., Mountain View, CA 94039            fax (415) 965-2658





Article: 68496 of talk.politics.guns
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere?
Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:51:19 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <26qba7$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com>
References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8]

RKBA.001 - Accidental deaths by firearms and by other means
           April 21, 1990, version 1.0
         

DESCRIPTION
===========
Firearms are NOT a leading cause of accidental deaths. Accidental falls 
and drowning together kill more than TEN times the number of people 
accidently killed by firearms. The accidental death rate per capita for 
firearms has been declining steadily for over 50 years (see RKBA.002).

CONCLUSION
==========
Mandatory swimming lessons and safety in dealing with heights (ladders 
etc.) would be money better spent than mandatory firearms training.


The Y-axis increment in the table below is 2,000.


  ####
  ####
  ####
  ####
  ####
  ####
  ####
  ####
  ####
  ####
  ####
  ####
  ####
  ####
  ####
  ####
  ####
  ####
  ####      ###
  ####      ###
  ####      ###      #
  ####      ###     ###       ###    ###
  ####      ###     ###       ###    ###     ###
  ####      ###     ###       ###    ###     ###      ###     vvv
  ------------------------------------------------------------------
  48,700    11,300  5,300     4,800  4,400   3,200    1,400   1,000
  motor     falls   drowning  fires  poison  choking  guns    poison
  vehicles                           lq/sld                   gas


-end-
--------------------- If you don't see the moral answer to the problem, use --
Phil Ronzone
pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr
--------------------- the universal can opener: "Whose property/life is it?" --


Article: 68497 of talk.politics.guns
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere?
Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:51:34 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <26qbam$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com>
References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8]

RKBA.002 - Declining trend of accidental deaths by firearms
           Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/04/23 at 22:28:19)


DESCRIPTION
===========
The accidental deaths by firearm per capita has been declining steadily 
for almost sixty years. In 1932, the accidental deaths by firearm per 
1,000,000 people was 24.03. In 1987, it was 5.74. The decline has been 
steady, consistent, and a fairly straight line when plotted. At the rate 
of the last sixty years, it will reach zero sometime around 2025 AD.

CONCLUSION
==========
Firearms have been a declining factor in accidental deaths for over 
sixty years, despite rising per-capita gun ownership.



[1] = Year.
[2] = Population.
[3] = Accidental deaths.
[4] = Accidental deaths per 1,000,000.


[1]   [2]          [3]    [4]       [1]   [2]          [3]    [4]   
1932  124,840,000  3,000  24.03     1961  183,691,000  2,204  12.00
1933  125,579,000  3,014  24.00     1962  186,538,000  2,092  11.21     
1934  126,374,000  3,033  24.00     1963  189,242,000  2,263  11.96     
1935  127,250,000  2,799  22.00     1964  191,889,000  2,275  11.86     
1936  128,053,000  2,817  22.00     1965  194,303,000  2,344  12.06     
1937  128,825,000  2,576  20.00     1966  196,560,000  2,558  13.01     
1938  129,825,000  2,726  21.00     1967  198,712,000  2,896  14.57     
1939  130,880,000  2,618  20.00     1968  200,706,000  2,394  11.93     
1940  132,122,000  2,375  17.98     1969  202,677,000  2,309  11.39     
1941  133,402,000  2,396  17.96     1970  204,879,000  2,406  11.74     
1942  134,860,000  2,678  19.86     1971  207,661,000  2,360  11.36     
1943  136,739,000  2,282  16.69     1972  209,896,000  2,442  11.63    
1944  138,397,000  2,392  17.28     1973  211,909,000  2,618  12.35    
1945  139,928,000  2,385  17.04     1974  213,854,000  2,613  12.22    
1946  141,389,000  2,801  19.81     1975  215,854,000  2,380  11.03    
1947  144,126,000  2,439  16.92     1976  218,035,000  2,059   9.44    
1948  146,631,000  2,191  14.94     1977  220,239,000  1,982   9.00    
1949  149,188,000  2,330  15.62     1978  222,585,000  1,806   8.11    
1950  151,684,000  2,174  14.33     1979  225,055,000  2,004   8.90
1951  154,287,000  2,247  14.56     1980  227,757,000  1,955   8.58    
1952  156,954,000  2,210  14.08     1981  230,138,000  1,871   8.13
1953  159,565,000  2,277  14.27     1982  232,520,000  1,756   7.55    
1954  162,391,000  2,271  13.98     1983  234,799,000  1,695   7.22    
1955  165,275,000  2,120  12.83     1984  237,001,000  1,668   7.04    
1956  168,221,000  2,202  13.09     1985  239,279,000  1,649   6.89    
1957  171,274,000  2,369  13.83     1986  241,613,000  1,600   6.62    
1958  174,141,000  2,172  12.47     1987  243,915,000  1,400   5.74    
1959  177,073,000  2,258  12.75           
1960  180,671,000  2,334  12.92


Sources: BOC75, BOC83, BOC89.

-end-
--------------------- If you don't see the moral answer to the problem, use --
Phil Ronzone
pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr
--------------------- the universal can opener: "Whose property/life is it?" --





Article: 68498 of talk.politics.guns
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere?
Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:51:46 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <26qbb2$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com>
References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8]

RKBA.003 - Homicide per capita in the US
           Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/04/23 at 23:15:38)


DESCRIPTION
===========
Homicide by firearms per capita in the US has varied up and down over 
the years. It has peaked in the middle of the 1930's (Prohibition), 
declined thereafter, with significant dips during WWI, the Korean war, 
and the start of the Vietnam war. It has been in a decline again since 
1979.

The per capita homicide (by firearms) rate is now at a rate equal to 
that of the late 1930's/early 1940's.

A premise of gun control is that reducing the number of guns reduces 
crime. The corollary is that increasing the number of guns increase 
crime. The period after WWII, when millions of servicemen returned home 
with hundreds of thousands of firearms as war souvenir, shows an near-
perfect flat line.

However, the period after the passage of the most infamous anti-gun laws 
(GCA68 - the Gun Control Act of 1968) shows a dramatic and fairly sudden 
increase in homicides (by firearms) per capita.

What can be seen is that a sudden reduction of men in the age group of 
18-24 (the age groups that commits the most crimes) shows a sudden 
reduction in homicides (as well as other crimes). The three wars, WWII, 
Korean, and Vietnam show these dips.

In addition, a plot (not shown) of all firearms-not-used homicides 
(knives, poison, hands, feet, explosives etc.) shows a near identical 
plot. In other words, the TOTAL per capita murder rate for guns and all 
others go up and down together.


CONCLUSION
==========
No correlation can be shown by U.S. national homicide figures that 
reducing or restricting the number of guns reduces homicides.


GRAPH
=====
The Y-axis is 5 homicides/non-negligent homicides per 1,000,000. The X-
axis is 1.2 years (squeezed to fit), starting at 1915.

                                                             1979
                                                                |
                                                                +
:::::::::::::::::##:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::#:::::::
:::::::::::::::###:#:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::##:::#::##:::::
::::::::::::##:::::::#:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::####::##::::::#:#::
::::::::#:::::::::::::#:::::::::::::::::::::::::::##::::::::::::::::#:#:
:::::#:::::::::::::::::::#::::###:::::::::::::::::#::::::::::::::::::::#
:::#:#:::::::::::::::::::::#:#:::#::::::::::::::#:::::::::::::::::::::::
:#:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::#::########::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::#::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
+                                    +                 +               +
|                                    |                 |               |
1915                              1942              1967            1988



Sources: BOC75, BOC89, UCR82, UCR85, UCR87.

-end-
--------------------- If you don't see the moral answer to the problem, use --
Phil Ronzone
pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr
--------------------- the universal can opener: "Whose property/life is it?" --





Article: 68499 of talk.politics.guns
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere?
Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:52:00 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 105
Message-ID: <26qbbg$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com>
References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8]

RKBA.004 - Children and firearms
           Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/04/25 at 21:44:23)


DESCRIPTION
============
One of the most emotional issues that people confront is death. Death of 
children can be even more emotional, playing on our concern for the young and 
helpless.

Shortly after the February 6, 1989 issue of TIME magazine, a fairly long lived 
debate began in talk.politics.guns on the issue of children killed by 
firearms.

Letters to TIME magazine in the weeks that followed that issue claimed figures 
such as "over 3,400 children" are killed each year by firearms. One poster to 
talk.politics.guns claimed that the figure was "ten thousand children" killed 
each year.

In actuality, the total number of children (ages up to and including 14) 
killed by firearms, deliberately or accidently, is typically 500 to 600 a 
year.

SUMMARY
=======
Total firearm deaths for children (<1 through 14) at 587 (1988) is one of the 
SMALLEST causes of deaths in children. Cars, falls, burns, drowning, food 
ingestion are all much larger cause of deaths (7,988).

Deaths of all types, including firearms, rise dramatically starting at age 15, 
peaking at 17 through 22 (the really dangerous years).

CONCLUSION
==========
The use of the phrase "thousands of children killed" is an emotional 
propagandistic phrase designed to play on our worst fears. Be aware that TIME 
magazine has printed a letter from a "doctor" who claimed that 3,312 children
are killed "by guns" each year. The only way to achieve that figure is to 
count as children all people from age 0 through and including 24!

(Ages 0 through 24 is a common statistical grouping in many sources).

Watch out for inclusion of ages 16, 17, and 18 into the "children" group. 
IMHO, children can not drive, drink beer, or join the military, all things 
possible in those three years.




            MURDERS AND NON-NEGLIGENT HOMICIDES (1988)
     AGE    By firearms   Other (cutting, stabbing, blunt objects, poison...)
     < 1    10            230
  1 to 4    44            289
  5 to 9    56             96
10 to 14   136             91
--------   ---            ---
           246            706



Total deaths (accidental and non-murder) ages up to and including 24 were 
54,207 (1985). In 1985, total firearm accidental and non-murder deaths was 755 
for the same age group.

    AGE  Accidental deaths by firearms
    <1     2
     1     5
     2    12
     3    10
     4    14
     5     9
     6     9
     7    10
     8    12
     9    18
    10    27
    11    23
    12    37
    13    38
    14    52
         ---
         278

    15    57
    16    52
    17    42
    ---  ---
         429


FUTURE
======
As I do the research, I will break these statistics down into 1 year 
increments, using 1989 statistics, from ages 0 through 24.

Sources: NSC88, TIME06FEB89, UCR89.

-end-
--------------------- If you don't see the moral answer to the problem, use --
Phil Ronzone
pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr
--------------------- the universal can opener: "Whose property/life is it?" --





Article: 68500 of talk.politics.guns
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere?
Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:52:39 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <26qbcn$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com>
References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8]

{I don't have RKBA.005, 006, or 007.  -  Steve Kao}

RKBA.008 - Annual firearm manufacture in the United States
           Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/04/25 at 23:38:32)


DESCRIPTION
============

CJS87 has data for firearms manufacture from 1977 through 1984. The starting 
and ending years are consistent with the intermediate years (although 1980 and 
1981 saw a total of 5.6 and 5.7 million guns total). These figures do NOT 
include firearms manufactured for the military.

1977 Total guns ........... 4,904,422
         Total handguns ... 1,879,645
             Pistols ......   452,667
             Revolvers .... 1,426,978
         Total long guns .. 3,024,777
             Rifles ....... 1,839,925
             Shotguns ..... 1,184,852

1984 Total guns ........... 4,651,477
         Total handguns ... 1,679,709
             Pistols ......   752,919
             Revolver .....   926,790
         Total long guns .. 2,966,838
             Rifles ....... 1,106,761
             Shotguns ..... 1,860,077
             Machine guns .     4,930

TIME magazine claimed that AK47S imports were 4,000 in 185-1986, and 40,000 in 
1988. Imports of that type of foreign made semiautomatic rifle were stopped in 
early 1989.

That means that imports of AK47S style rifles were about 2% (two percent) of 
the typical total domestic rifle production.

Sources: CJS87, TIME06FEB89.

-end-
--------------------- If you don't see the moral answer to the problem, use --
Phil Ronzone
pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr
--------------------- the universal can opener: "Whose property/life is it?" --





Article: 68501 of talk.politics.guns
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere?
Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:53:11 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 155
Message-ID: <26qbdn$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com>
References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8]

{I don't have RKBA.009  - Steve Kao}

RKBA.010 - Declaration of Independence
           Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/04/25 at 21:57:13)

(Adopted in Congress 4 July 1776)
The Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America
When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to 
dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to 
assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which 
the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the 
opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel 
them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that 
they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among 
these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these 
rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers form 
the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes 
destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to 
abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such 
principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most 
likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate 
that governments long established should not be changed for light and 
transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are 
more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves 
by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of 
abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design 
to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, 
to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future 
security. Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is 
now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of 
government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of 
repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the 
establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let 
facts be submitted to a candid world.
He has refused his assent to laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the 
public good.
He has forbidden his governors to pass laws of immediate and pressing 
importance, unless suspended in their operation till his assent should be 
obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other laws for the accommodation of large districts of 
people, unless those people would relinquish the right of representation in 
the legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, 
and distant from the depository of their public records, for the sole purpose 
of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved representative houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly 
firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be 
elected; whereby the legislative powers, incapable of annihilation, have 
returned to the people at large for their exercise; the state remaining in the 
meantime exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions 
within.
He has endeavored to prevent the population of these states; for that purpose 
obstructing the laws for naturalization of foreigners; refusing to pass others 
to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new 
appropriations of lands.
He has obstructed the administration of justice, by refusing his assent to 
laws for establishing judiciary powers.
He has made judges dependent on his will alone, for the tenure of their 
offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers 
to harass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, standing armies without the consent 
of our legislature.
He has affected to render the military independent of and superior to civil 
power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our 
constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his assent to their acts 
of pretended legislation:
For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment for any murders which they 
should commit on the inhabitants of these states:
For cutting off our trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing taxes on us without our consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of trial by jury:
For transporting us beyond seas to be tried for pretended offenses:
For abolishing the free system of English laws in a neighboring province, 
establishing therein an arbitrary government, and enlarging its boundaries so 
as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same 
absolute rule in these colonies:
For taking away our charters, abolishing our most valuable laws, and altering 
fundamentally the forms of our governments:
For suspending our own legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with 
power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated government here, by declaring us out of his protection and 
waging war against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burned our towns, and destroyed 
the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries to 
complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with 
circumstances of cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous 
ages, and totally unworthy the head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow citizens taken captive on the high seas to bear 
arms against their country, to become the executioners of their friends and 
brethren, or to fall themselves by their hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring 
on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian savages, whose known 
rule of warfare, is undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and 
conditions.
In every stage of these oppressions we have petitioned for redress in the most 
humble terms: our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated 
injury. A prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define 
a tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
Nor have we been wanting in attention to our British brethren. We have warned 
them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an 
unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances 
of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native 
justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common 
kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our 
connections and correspondence. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the 
necessity, which denounces our separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest 
of mankind, enemies in war, in peace friends.
We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General 
Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the 
rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good 
people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united 
colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they 
are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political 
connection between them and the state of Great Britain, is and ought to be 
totally dissolved; and that as free and independent states, they have full 
power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and 
to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And 
for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of 
Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes 
and our sacred honor.

New Hampshire: Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton 
Massachusetts: John Hancock, Samual Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine,  
Elbridge Gerry Rhode Island: Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery Connecticut: 
Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver  Wolcott New York: 
William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris New Jersey: 
Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John  Hart, Abraham 
Clark Pennsylvania: Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John 
Morton,  George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross 
Delaware: Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean Maryland: Samuel Chase, 
William Paca, Thomas Stone,  Charles Carroll of Carrollton Virginia: George 
Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin  Harrison, Thomas Nelson, 
Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton North Carolina: William Hooper, 
Joseph Hewes, John Penn South Carolina: Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., 
Thomas Lynch, Jr.,  Arthur Middleton Georgia: Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, 
George Walton 


Sources: I would like to acknowledge to the original poster of this. If he or 
she would let me know, I will acknowledge them in the next posting.

-end-
--------------------- If you don't see the moral answer to the problem, use --
Phil Ronzone
pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr
--------------------- the universal can opener: "Whose property/life is it?" --





Article: 68502 of talk.politics.guns
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere?
Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:53:44 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <26qbeo$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com>
References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8]

{I don't have RKBA.011 or 012  -  Steve Kao}

RKBA.013 - Trend in weapons use for robberies (1974-86)
           Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/04/23 at 22:24:42)


DESCRIPTION
===========
In the thirteen years from 1974 to 1986, the use of firearms in 
robberies has decreased from 45% of robberies to 34%. In the same time 
period, the use of knives has stayed about the same, the use of clubs 
and blunt objects has risen somewhat, and the use of hands, feet, etc. 
has risen from 34% to over 43%.

During the period 1975 through 1986, no national gun control laws were 
enacted. Very few states, with the exception of Massachusetts, adopted 
new gun control laws.

However, many states did enact laws or sentencing guidelines of the "use 
a gun, go to jail" type.

SUMMARY
=======
The use firearms in robbery is declining. The use of hands, fists, feet, 
etc. rose. No national and no significant state laws (except MA) were 
enacted. Per capita firearm ownership rose slightly. The only observable 
correlation is that of stricter sentencing of criminals when a guns is 
used.

CONCLUSION
==========
To reduce the use firearms in robberies, implement stricter sentencing 
when firearms are involved.


                            Knife or      Dangerous       Hands,
                  Any       any cutting   object, club,   fist
YEAR  Robberies   Firearm   instrument    blunt object    feet
----  ---------   -------   ------------  -------------   --------
1974  389,140     44.7      13.1           8.1            34.1
1975  439,965     44.8      12.5           7.8            35.0
1976  408,788     42.6      13.0           7.8            36.5
1977  383,962     41.6      13.2           8.5            36.7
1978  405,735     40.8      12.7           9.0            37.5
1979  434,654     39.7      13.2           9.4            37.7
1980  526,537     40.3      12.8           9.1            37.8
1981  522,549     40.1      13.1           8.9            37.8
1982  512,444     39.9      13.6           9.1            37.4
1983  488,246     36.6      13.6           9.5            40.3
1984  435,732     36        13             9              42
1985  461,725     35        13             9              42
1986  531,468     34        14            10              43




Source: BJS86 for precise 1974 through 1983 values (based on data not 
published in the Uniform Crime Reports), CJS87 for 1984 through 1986.

-end-
--
<---------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Philip K. Ronzone                  S e c u r e   U N I X           pkr@sgi.com
Silicon Graphics, Inc. MS 9U-500                           work (415) 335-1511
2011 N. Shoreline Blvd., Mountain View, CA 94039            fax (415) 969-2314


Article: 68503 of talk.politics.guns
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere?
Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:54:02 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 238
Message-ID: <26qbfa$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com>
References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8]

RKBA.014 - Reasons for homicide and non-negligent manslaughter
           Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/05/17 at 15:07:58)


DESCRIPTION
===========
A common misconception, popularized in the media (especially in the
Dear Abby/Ann Landers sob-sister columns), is that a gun in the house
is more likely to murder a "loved one" than to defeat a burglar.

The tables below show the total victims of each type, the type
being the relationship to the murderer, and the circumstances during
which the victim was murderd.

Table one shows the numbers as percentages, table two as victim counts,
and table three as in descending order of all types by victim.

The figures are for 1987.

Note that ALL murders are counted, regardless of the weapon used.
Other statistics, not as complete and hence not included, show
that a gun is used far more in murdering strangers than it is for
relatives (knives are very popular with relatives).

Numbers will not round-up to exactly 100% because of round-off.


CONCLUSION
==========
"Loved ones" (oxymoron - who murders a "loved one") are quite low
in the murder count. The murder of a stranger (by a a stranger obv.)
is quite rare. Dope dealers that know each ARE acquaintances.




TOTAL = Total number of victims of this type.

FELON = Total number of victions of this type murdered during the
        commission of a felony (such as a burglary or robbery). I.e,
	you held up your dad's liquor store and killed dad or murdered
	your brother the bank guard during a bank hold up.

SUSFL = Total number of victions of this type murdered during the
        commission of a suspected felony (such as a burglary or robbery).

ROTRI = Total number of victions of this type murdered because of
	a romantic triangle..

AOMOP = Total number of victions of this type murdered because of
	an argument over money and/or property.

OTARG = Total number of victions of this type murdered because of
	an argument over something besides money and/or property.

MNFTY = Total number of victions of this type murdered during the
	commision of a non-felony crime.

UNABL = Total number of victions of this type murdered for
	unknown reasons.


	                    ***  T A B L E   1  ***
              -----   ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
              TOTAL   FELON SUSFL ROTRI AOMOP OTARG MNFTY UNABL
              19257    3730   379   414   471  6338  3586  4339
              -----   ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Acquaintance   30.8    25.7   6.9  62.7  52.2  40.4  38.8  11.4
Unknown        29.8    32.1  82.3   2.2   3.6   8.3  10.9  75.9
Stranger       13.0    32.2   8.4   7.0   8.1   8.8  11.7   5.1
Friend          5.2     3.8    .5   7.5  19.1   8.6   4.1   1.2
Wife            4.8      .4    .5   6.2   1.1   7.3   9.5   1.6
Other family    2.9     1.4    .3    .7   4.5   5.1   3.6    .8
Husband         2.7      .1    .0   3.5    .2   4.9   4.6    .5
Girlfriend      2.6      .5    .5   5.7   1.1   5.2   2.2   1.1
Son             1.7     1.0     0    .5    .9   1.0   5.6    .5
Boyfriend       1.5      .2     0   2.0   1.3   3.4   1.1    .2
Neighbor        1.4     1.4     0   1.5   2.6   2.3    .9    .6
Brother         1.0      .2     0    .2   3.0   2.2    .9    .1
Daughter        1.0      .5    .3     0    .2    .4   4.0    .2 
Father          0.7      .2     0     0   1.5   1.1   1.0    .3 
Mother          0.6      .2    .3     0    .4    .8   1.0    .4 
Sister          0.2      .1     0    .2    .2    .4    .1    .1
                                                                                                                                

	                    ***  T A B L E   1  ***
              -----   ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
              TOTAL   FELON SUSFL ROTRI AOMOP OTARG MNFTY UNABL
              19257    3730   379   414   471  6338  3586  4339
              -----   ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Acquaintance   5937     959    26   260   246  2561  1391   495
Unknown        5746    1197   312     9    17   526   391  3293
Stranger       2499    1201    32    29    38   558   420   221
Friend         1009     142     2    31    90   545   147    52
Wife            920      15     2    26     5   463   341    69
Other family    564      52     1     3    21   323   129    35
Husband         516       4     0    14     1   311   165    22
Girlfriend      506      19     2    24     5   330    79    48
Son             330      37     0     2     4    63   201    22
Boyfriend       285       7     0     8     6   215    39     9
Neighbor        275      52     0     6    12   146    32    26
Brother         198       7     0     1    14   139    32     4
Daughter        198      19     1     0     1    25   143     9
Father          133       7     0     0     7    70    36    13
Mother          114       7     1     0     2    51    36    17
Sister           39       4     0     1     1    25     4     4




	        ***   T A B L E   3   ***
 3293        Unknown: For unkown reasons.
 2561   Acquaintance: Argument over non-money/property.
 1391   Acquaintance: Miscellaneous non-felony crime.
 1201       Stranger: Commission of felony.
 1197        Unknown: Commission of felony.
  959   Acquaintance: Commission of felony.
  564          Other: Commission of felony.
  558       Stranger: Argument over non-money/property.
  545         Friend: Argument over non-money/property.
  526        Unknown: Argument over non-money/property.
  495   Acquaintance: For unkown reasons.
  463           Wife: Argument over non-money/property.
  420       Stranger: Miscellaneous non-felony crime.
  391        Unknown: Miscellaneous non-felony crime.
  341           Wife: Miscellaneous non-felony crime.
  330     Girlfriend: Argument over non-money/property.
  323          Other: Miscellaneous non-felony crime.
  312        Unknown: Commission suspected felony.
  311        Husband: Argument over non-money/property.
  260   Acquaintance: Romantic triangle.
  246   Acquaintance: Argument over money or property.
  221       Stranger: For unkown reasons.
  215      Boyfriend: Argument over non-money/property.
  201            Son: Miscellaneous non-felony crime.
  165        Husband: Miscellaneous non-felony crime.
  147         Friend: Miscellaneous non-felony crime.
  146       Neighbor: Argument over non-money/property.
  143       Daughter: Miscellaneous non-felony crime.
  142         Friend: Commission of felony.
  139        Brother: Argument over non-money/property.
  129          Other: For unkown reasons.
   90         Friend: Argument over money or property.
   79     Girlfriend: Miscellaneous non-felony crime.
   70         Father: Argument over non-money/property.
   69           Wife: For unkown reasons.
   63            Son: Argument over non-money/property.
   52       Neighbor: Commission of felony.
   52         Friend: For unkown reasons.
   52          Other: Commission suspected felony.
   51         Mother: Argument over non-money/property.
   48     Girlfriend: For unkown reasons.
   39      Boyfriend: Miscellaneous non-felony crime.
   38       Stranger: Argument over money or property.
   37            Son: Commission of felony.
   36         Mother: Miscellaneous non-felony crime.
   36         Father: Miscellaneous non-felony crime.
   32       Stranger: Commission suspected felony.
   32       Neighbor: Miscellaneous non-felony crime.
   32        Brother: Miscellaneous non-felony crime.
   31         Friend: Romantic triangle.
   29       Stranger: Romantic triangle.
   26   Acquaintance: Commission suspected felony.
   26       Neighbor: For unkown reasons.
   26           Wife: Romantic triangle.
   25       Daughter: Argument over non-money/property.
   25         Sister: Argument over non-money/property.
   24     Girlfriend: Romantic triangle.
   22        Husband: For unkown reasons.
   22            Son: For unkown reasons.
   21          Other: Argument over non-money/property.
   19     Girlfriend: Commission of felony.
   19       Daughter: Commission of felony.
   17        Unknown: Argument over money or property.
   17         Mother: For unkown reasons.
   15           Wife: Commission of felony.
   14        Husband: Romantic triangle.
   14        Brother: Argument over money or property.
   13         Father: For unkown reasons.
   12       Neighbor: Argument over money or property.
    9      Boyfriend: For unkown reasons.
    9       Daughter: For unkown reasons.
    9        Unknown: Romantic triangle.
    8      Boyfriend: Romantic triangle.
    7      Boyfriend: Commission of felony.
    7        Brother: Commission of felony.
    7         Mother: Commission of felony.
    7         Father: Commission of felony.
    7         Father: Argument over money or property.
    6      Boyfriend: Argument over money or property.
    6       Neighbor: Romantic triangle.
    5     Girlfriend: Argument over money or property.
    5           Wife: Argument over money or property.
    4        Husband: Commission of felony.
    4        Brother: For unkown reasons.
    4         Sister: Miscellaneous non-felony crime.
    4         Sister: For unkown reasons.
    4         Sister: Commission of felony.
    4            Son: Argument over money or property.
    3          Other: Argument over money or property.
    2     Girlfriend: Commission suspected felony.
    2         Mother: Argument over money or property.
    2         Friend: Commission suspected felony.
    2           Wife: Commission suspected felony.
    2            Son: Romantic triangle.
    1       Daughter: Commission suspected felony.
    1       Daughter: Argument over money or property.
    1        Husband: Argument over money or property.
    1        Brother: Romantic triangle.
    1         Sister: Romantic triangle.
    1         Sister: Argument over money or property.
    1         Mother: Commission suspected felony.
    1          Other: Romantic triangle.
    0      Boyfriend: Commission suspected felony.
    0       Neighbor: Commission suspected felony.
    0       Daughter: Romantic triangle.
    0        Husband: Commission suspected felony.
    0        Brother: Commission suspected felony.
    0         Sister: Commission suspected felony.
    0         Mother: Romantic triangle.
    0         Father: Romantic triangle.
    0         Father: Commission suspected felony.
    0            Son: Commission suspected felony.




Sources: UCR88

-end-
--
<---------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Philip K. Ronzone                  S e c u r e   U N I X           pkr@sgi.com
Silicon Graphics, Inc. MS 9U-500                           work (415) 335-1511
2011 N. Shoreline Blvd., Mountain View, CA 94039            fax (415) 965-2658





Article: 68504 of talk.politics.guns
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere?
Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:54:20 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 171
Message-ID: <26qbfs$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com>
References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8]

RKBA.015 - Are firearms a leading cause of death of children?
           Version 1.1 (last changed on 91/03/15 at 12:21:18)


DESCRIPTION
===========
In some recent and lurid accounts in the media, the claim has been advanced
that the "leading cause of death among children" is firearms. Some variations
of this claim state that is the "leading cause of death of young black males".

Well, this just does not sound right. In turning to factual sources, I am
hampered by not having information that is up to date as I like. However,
rather than wait, I have decided to post the information I do have, which
in terms of "completeness", is based on 1985 data.

I have checked 1990 data, which only gives death counts on a per capita
basis without segragation by age groups. However, there are NO significant
changes in the per capita ratios, which is a very strong indication that the
1985 figures can be rationally extrapolated.

As later information is available, I will update this posting.


In 1985:

27,607 children (ages under 18) died.

11,927 children died from all accidents.

 6,639 children died in motor accidents.

 1,613 children died by drowning.

 1,249 children died from fires and/or burns.

 1,445 children died from miscellaneous/other causes.

   637 children died from firearms.
       (429 children died from ACCIDENTS involving firearms)
       (208 children (ages 14 and under) were murdered by firearms.)

An additional 888 "children" ages 15 through 19 were murdered
by firearms.

The breakdown in homicides group in 5 year groups, and the group 15-19
spans what is clearly a child's age (15,16, and 17??), and ages that are
not children.


SUMMARY
=======

Of the 27,607 deaths of children (< 18) in 1985, 637 children died from
firearms (both accidents and homicides). Yet, ten times MORE children,
6,639, died in motor accident alone. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY THAT
FIREARMS EVEN BEGIN TO APPROACH BEING A LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH FOR CHILDREN!


Current (incomplete) 1990 statistics show that the percentages are still
the same (+- 5%).



CONCLUSION
==========
Firearms are clearly NOT, by any stretch of the imagination, a leading cause
of death for children (ages 18 and under). In facts, firearms are involved
(both homicide and accidents) in ONLY 2.3% of deaths of children.






===============================================================================

	               Deaths by age by major causes

                                                                 S
      P T              A D                                       U
      O H              C E                                       F
      P O              C A            D           F              F
      U U              I T            R           I         P    O
      L S     A D      D H     M D    O           R         O    C
      A A     L E      E S     O E    W     F B   E    F    I    A     O
      T N     L A      N       T A    N     I U   A    A    S    T     T
 A    I D       T      T       O T    I     R R   R    L    O    I     H
 G    O S       H      A       R H    N     E N   M    L    N    O     E
 E    N         S      L         S    G     S S   S    S    S    N     R
===  =====   ======   ====    ====  =====  ====  ===  ===  ===  ====  ====
<1   3,736    4,030    890     179     90   111    2   45   14   171   278
1    3,496    2,837    863     263    204   153    5   39   25    38   136
2    3,561    1,941    792     265    177   177   12   20   12    19   110
3    3,608    1,389    653     248    124   167   10   13    3    8     80
4    3,604    1,172    548     240     95   116   14    8    1    6     68
5    3,548      996    463     242     71    73    9    2    3    6     57
6    3,428      938    454     242     54    74    9    8    2    9     56
7    3,387      775    369     202     44    60   10    6    0    2     45
8    3,256      736    342     185     47    51   12    6    2    4     35
9    3,204      723    367     192     55    45   18    6    1   11     39
10   3,317      678    313     171     44    26   27    5    0   11     29
11   3,207      728    339     177     44    35   23    7    1   12     40
12   3,277      856    402     211     57    31   37    5    2   12     47
13   3,487    1,076    522     278     72    27   38   14    4   14     75
14   3,813    1,427    681     419     82    31   52   12    8   12     65
15   3,768    1,850    929     827     99    24   57   11   10   15     86
16   3,681    2,531  1,391   1,043    125    28   52   21   19    8     95
17   3,603    2,924  1,609   1,255    129    20   42   26   18   15    104
18   3,628    3,718  2,095   1,649    150    25   53   38   19   14    147
l9   3,872    4,045  2,178   1,708    123    37   37   36   33   14    190
20   4,052    4,144  2,168   1,646    t49    37   60   46   38   11    181
21   4,134    4,613  2,367   1,77S    137    53   51   56   54   21    220
22   4,169    4,601  2,168   1,584    142    50   52   45   75   17    203
23   4,250    4,698  2,144   1,537    156    51   32   48   66   13    241
--- ------   ------ ------  ------  -----  ----  ---  ---  ---  ---  -----
TOT 87,744   54,207 26,269  17,612  2,516  1446  755  543  491  309  2,597


TOT 62,981   27,607 11,927   6,639  1,613  1,249 429  254  125  373  1,445
<18

Source for above: NSC88






==============================================================================

                      Murder by age group by weapon

Uniform Crimes
        <--------------------- MURDER  WEAPON ------------------------>
                                                                 S
                                              E        N     S   U
                   F       S                  X        A     T   F
                   I   C   T     O            P        R     R   F
                   R   U   A     B        P   L        C     A   O
           T       E   T   B   B J   H    O   O        O     N   C   E
           O       A   T   B   L E   A F  I   S   F    T     G   A   T
A          T       R   I A I   U C   N E  S   I   I    I     L   T   H
G          A       M   N N N   N T   D E  O   V   R    C     E   E   E
E          L       S   G D G   T S   S T  N   E   E    S     D   D   R
=====   ======  =====  =====  ====  ==== ==  ==  ===  ==    ==  ==  ===
<1        190       4     16    9     91  0   0    7   1     1  21   40
1-4       325      47     26    20   147  0   0   16   5     0  17   47
5-9       150      45     24    12    33  0   0    9   0     8   6   13
10-14     215     112     43    18    13  0   0    6   1     9   3   10
15-19   1,347     888    283    35    43  0   0   17   2     18  6   55
20-24   2,734   1,714    654   107   103  0   1   18   2     47  6   82
25-29   2,973   1,987    617   102   111  0   0   22   6     44  8   76
30-34   2,397   1,529    530   104   106  0   2   18   4     45  4   55
35-39   1,796   1,130    397    92    77  2   1   19   3     24  4   47
40-44   1,291     810    243    73    75  1   2   15   3     22  3   44
45-49     890     527    187    64    63  0   1   13   0     10  4   21
5O-54     686     364    158    62    55  1   1   13   1     11  0   20
55-59     613     340    134    62    32  1   0    6   1     11  2   24
60-64     507     242    109    56    46  1   3   13   0     10  5   22
60-69     363     159     69    45    37  0   0   14   0     15  9   15
70-74     260     98      54    36    27  0   0    8   2     12  4   19
>74       425     111     90    61    86  1   0   19   0     17 11   29
unknown   383     189     60    14    35  0   0   10   0      7  2   66
-----   ------  -----  -----  ----  ---- --  --  ---  --    --  --  ---
<18     1,452     580    226   76    303  0   0   47   8   25   47  140
>=18   15,710   9,527  3,408  882    842  7   1  186  23  279   66  479
Total  17,545  10,296  3,694  972  1,180  7  11  243  31  311  115  685

Source: UCR85

-end-


Article: 68505 of talk.politics.guns
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere?
Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:54:40 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 254
Message-ID: <26qbgg$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com>
References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8]

RKBA.016 - Is the United States the most violent nation?
           Version 1.2 (last changed on 91/03/22 at 13:05:06)


DESCRIPTION
===========
A spate of media "claims" implying that the United States is the highest crime
rate nations in the world has been observed in the media recently. However, if
we were to look at homicide, rape, and larceny (burglary, robbery, etc.) we find
a quite different story.

In homicide, the US is number 11, with a murder rate of 9.60 per 100,000.
The nearest European country in the Netherlands, with a homicide rate of
7.15 per 100,000. However, elimination of high crime inner city rates
pushes the per capita down to 3.77, below such countries as Luxemburg
(5.25), Finland (4.88), West Germany (4.47), Scotland (3.82), and somewhat
barely above Sweden (3.36).

Places such as Norway are not known to have massive illegal aliens, drug
misuse problems, or large cultural inhomogeneities.

Of even more interest is the TREMENDOUSLY larger per capita rape numbers
in the "non-violent peace loving" European counties. The Unites States at 26.30
is below such countries as Australia (90.82), West Germany (77.49), New Zealand
(65.73), Netherlands (56.00), Scotland (44.69), Denmark (41.06), Sweden
(40.52), Austria (30.42).

In the category of larceny (robbery, burglary etc.), the United States is
below Italy and New Zealand, and somewhat above Denmark, West Germany,
Scotland, Sweden, Austria, and England & Wales.


CONCLUSION
==========
The United States is NOT the most violent country in the world. While high
in homicide, there are several European nations that have similar per
capita homicide rates, without the presence of large scale drug problems
or immigrant & illegal alien situations.

In terms of rape, the US lags TREMENDOUSLY behind some of the "civilized"
and "non-violent" European countries.

In larceny (burglary, robbery), the US is again not a leader.

In short, given all the problems that the US has that European countries do
NOT have, the US is surprisingly non-violent (relatively speaking).




                 H O M I C I D E
                                  PER         ABSOLUTE
RANK  COUNTRY                     100,000     NUMBERS
====  ==========================  =======     ========
 01   Lesotho                     140.81       1,592
 02   Bahamas                      22.88          45
 03   Guyana                       22.21         610
 05   Netherlands Antilles         12.47          29
 06   Iraq                         11.94       1,243
 07   Sri Lanka                    11.92       1,597
 08   Cyprus                       11.11          71
 09   Trinidad & Tobago            10.41         113
 10   Jamaica                      10.25         205
 11   United States                 9.60      18,155
 12   Kuwait                        9.18          78
 13   Tanzania                      8.98       1,295
 14   Kenya                         8.66       1,047
 15   Madagascar                    8.14         692
 16   Burma                         8.06       2,304
 17   Venezuela                     7.19         834
 18   Netherlands                   7.15         964
 19   Chile                         6.69         723
 20   St.Kitts-Nevis-Anguilla       6.67           4
 21   Jordan                        6.06         103
 22   Syria                         5.52         331
 23   Luxembourg                    5.25          21
 24   Mali                          5.02         251
 25   Finland                       4.88         229
 26   Malawi                        4.57         183
 27   West Germany                  4.47       2,771
 28   Monaco                        4.40           1
 29   Sierra Leone                  4.00         120
 30   Sconand                       3.82         199
 31   Libya                         3.77          85
 32   Egypt                         3.45       1,241
 33   India                         3.40      19,480
 34   Sweden                        3.36         275
 35   Austria                       3.06         229
 36   Italy                         2.95       1,643
 37   Singapore                     2.77          62
 38   Nigeria                       2.75       1,510
 39   Australia & Papua New Guinea  2.73         411
 40   France                        2.70       1,429
 41   Philippines                   2.68       1,106
 42   Hong Kong                     2.59         110
 43   Malaysia                      2.49         298
 44   Peru                          2.44         376
 45   England & Wales               2.24       1,102
 46   Denmark                       2.03         102
 47   Japan                         1.74       1,912
 48   New Zealand                   1.51          46
 49   South Korea                   1.33         460
 50   Zaire                         1.19         286
 51   Molocco                       1.11         199
 52   Ivory Coast                   1.09          63
 53   Solomon Islands               1.08           2
 54   Greece                        0.87          77
 55   Indonesia                     0.87       1,120
 56   Uganda                        0.83          83
 57   Fiji                          0.71           4
 58   Spain                         0.67         233
 59   Norway                        0.50          20


------------------------  R A P E  -----------------
                                PER         ABSOLUTE
RANK  COUNTRY                   100,000     NUMBERS
====  ========================  =======     ========
   1  Australia                 90.82       13,674
   2  West Germany              77.49       48,075
   3  Solomon Islands           76.96          142
   4  Venezuela                 66.84        7,754
   5  New Zealand               65.73        2,000
   6  Bahamas                   62.02          122
   7  Libya                     56.58        1,277
   8  Netherlands               56.00        7,554
   9  England & Wales           50.20       24,698
  10  Lesotho                   49.53          560
  11  Kuwait                    48.35          411
  12  Netherlands Antilles      46.96          109
  13  Scotland                  44.69        2,330
  14  Denmark                   41.06        2,068
  15  Sweden                    40.52        3,313
  16  Guyana                    34.50          264
  17  Hong Kong                 32.97        1,401
  18  Austria                   30.42        2,274
  19  Peru                      29.14        4,482
  20  St. Kitts-Nevis-Anguilla  26.67           16
  21  Monaco                    26.41            6
  22  United States             26.30       40,168
  23  France                    26.19       13,828
  24  Fiji                      26.07          147
  25  Lebanon                   25.93          778
  26  Trinidad & Tobago         25.23          274
  27  Jamaica                   24.95          499
  28  Norway                    23.43          931
  23  Chile                     22.51        2,362
  30  Uganda                    16.48        1,648
  31  South Korea               13.90        4,854
  32  Morocco                   12.69        2,284
  33  Spain                     12.21        4,310
  34  Italy                     11.87        6,605
  35  Malawi                    11.45          458
  36  Tanzania                  10.31        1,487
  37  Japan                     10.30       11,338
  38  Kenya                      9.76        1,180
  39  Finland                    9.44          443
  40  Luxembourg                 9.25           37
  41  Jordan                     7.71          131
  42  Sierra Leone               7.47          224
  43  Zaire                      5.85        1,404
  44  Mali                       5.60          280
  45  Malaysia                   4.72          564
  46  Burma                      3.79        1,085
  47  Singapore                  3.67           82
  48  Iraq                       3.65          380
  49  Madagascar                 3.25          276
  50  Nigeria                    2 60        1,428
  51  Greece                     2.31          203
  52  Sri Lanka                  1.53          205
  53  Philippines                1.08          447
  54  Indonesia                  0.90        1,162
  55  Cyprus                     0.63           40
  56  Syria                      0.52           31
  57  India                      0.51        2,919
  58  Egypt                      0.34          122
  59  Ivory Coast                0.17           10


--------------------  L A R C E N Y  -----------------
                                       PER       ABSOLUTE
RANK  COUNTRY                          100,000   NUMBERS
====  ========================         ========  =========
 1    Italy                            2,355.68  1,310,798
 2    Bahamas                          2,267.83      4,461
 3    New Zealand                      2,193.93     66,757
 4    United States                    1,744.00  2,641,000
 5    Denmark                          1,723.71     86,809
 6    West Germany                     1,611.12    999,861
 7    Guyana                           1,555.07     11,901
 8    Scotland                         1,486.65     77,499
 9    Sweden                           1,427.51    116,723
10    Austria                          1,214.16     90,771
11    England & Wales                  1,001.11    492,498
12    Australia & Papua New Guinea       888.63    133,795
13    Netherlands                        863.72      2,009
14    Lesotho                            861.05      9,735
15    Norway                             815.00     32,380
16    Netherlands Antilles               802.19    108,190
17    Luxembourg                         493.00      1,972
18    Hong Kong                          450.18     19,128
19    Trinidad & Tobago                  428.14      4,649
20    Jamaica                            402.75      8,055
21    France                             387.70    204,630
22    Spain                              360.54    127,215
23    Peru                               333.89     51,362
24    Fiji                               275.27      1,552
25    St. Kitts-Nevis-Anguilla           256.67        154
26    Chile                              231.85     24,331
27    South Korea                        231.60     80,348
28    Monaro                             215.66         49
29    Venezuela                          199.41     23,131
30    Malawi                             197.42      7,897
31    Tanzania                           155.24     22,384
32    Cyprus                             149.61        956
33    Lebanon                            145.30      4,359
34    Kenya                              133.28     16,101
35    Finland                            131.38      6,163
36    Nigeria                            126.86     69,775
37    Kuwait                             101.76        865
38    Sierra Leone                        96.67      2,900
39    Solomon Islands                     91.06        168
40    Singapore                           78.04      1,745
41    India                               66.19    379,412
42    Libya                               50.15      1,132
43    Sri Lanka                           31.68      4,243
44    Madagascar                          27.25      2,316
45    Jordan                              22.71        386
46    Morocco                             21.10      3,798
47    Zaire                               21.07      5,059
48    Malaysia                            20.84      2,493
49    Mali                                19.08        954
50    Burma                               14.95      4,275
51    Syria                               12.00        720
52    Ivory Coast                         10.96        636
53    Uganda                               5.36        536
54    Indonesia                            2.95      3,802
55    Iraq                                 2.79        290
56    Philippines                          2.09        865
57    Japan                                1.94      2,140
58    Greece                               1.18        104


Sources: BWR84

-end-
-- 
---
---
phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)

Hey, let's nuke "The Simpsons" and replace it with the "Itchy & Scratch Show"!

These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em!  (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)


Article: 68506 of talk.politics.guns
From: k@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Steve Kao)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FAQ anywhere?
Date: 10 Sep 1993 16:55:30 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 89
Message-ID: <26qbi2$86t@hpchase.rose.hp.com>
References: <1993Sep10.144719.25079@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hprnd.rose.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.8]

{If there are any RKBA beyond 016, I don't know about them.  -  Steve Kao}

RKBA.999 - Complete list of all sources
           Version 1.1 (last changed on 90/04/25 at 23:22:54)


INTRODUCTION
============
The RKBA.nnn series are a (hopefully) growing set of small (60-100 lines 
typically) postings that address common questions and myths about all 
aspects of firearms. It is posted to talk.politics.guns on a regular 
basis (yet to be determined as to what is appropriate).

All sources for the RKBA.nnn articles are kept here.

SOURCES
=======
The following is a complete (and growing) list of all the sources used 
in the RKBA.nnn listings.


BCS88 - The California Department of Justice, Division of Law Enforcement, 
Criminal Identification and Information Branch, Bureau of Criminal Statistics 
and Special Services, BCS Outlook Crime 1988 in Selected California Law 
Enforcement Jurisdictions, January through December, March 1989.

BCS89 - The California Department of Justice, Division of Law Enforcement, 
Criminal Identification and Information Branch, Bureau of Criminal Statistics 
and Special Services, BCS Outlook Crime 1989 in Selected California Law 
Enforcement Jurisdictions, January through June, August 1989.

BJS81 - U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, The National 
Crime Survey: Working Papers, Volume I: Current and Historical Perspectives, 
Washington, DC, December 1981.

BJS86 - U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, The Use of 
Weapons in Committing Crimes, Washington, DC, 1986.

BOC75 - U.S. Bureau of the Census, Historical Statistics of the United States, 
Colonial Times to 1970, Bicentennial Edition, Part 2, Washington, DC, 1975.

BOC83 - U.S. Bureau of the Census, Statistical Abstract of the United States: 
1982-83. (103th edition.) Washington, DC, 1982 [sic]..

BOC89 - U.S. Bureau of the Census, Statistical Abstract of the United States: 
1989 (109th edition.)  Washington, DC, 1989.

CJS83 - United States Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, 
Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics, 1983.

CJS87 - United States Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, 
Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics, 1987.

EZELL - Edward Clinton Ezell, Small Arms of the World, 12th edition, Stackpole 
Books, Harrisburg, PA, 1983.

MCPHEE - McPhee, John, La Place de la Concorde Suisse, Farrar/Strauss/Giroux, 
NY, 1984.

NSC88 - National Safety Council, Accident Facts 1988 Edition, Chicago, IL, 
1988. Available via Customer Service, National Service Council, 444 N. 
Michigan Ave., Chicago, Illinois 60611. (800) 621-7619.

TIM06FEB89 - TIME magazine, volume 133, issue number 6, February 6, 1989 
issue, cover titled "ARMED AMERICA  More guns, more shootings, more 
massacres", cover illustration is a drawn outline of the continental USA  
distorted as the upper part of a skull with eye sockets and nose, with a 
crossed AR15 and AK47S below.

UCR82 - U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform 
Crime Reports 1982.

UCR85 - U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform 
Crime Reports 1985.

UCR87 - U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform 
Crime Reports 1987.

UCR89 - U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform 
Crime Reports 1989.

-end-
--------------------- If you don't see the moral answer to the problem, use --
Phil Ronzone
pkr@sgi.COM {decwrl,sun}!sgi!pkr
--------------------- the universal can opener: "Whose property/life is it?" --





Article: 68474 of talk.politics.guns
From: mgiwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Matt Giwer)
Sender: ufgate@mechanic.fidonet.org (newsout1.26)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: The big lie, how to d 1/2
Message-ID: <2698.2C90A99C@mechanic.fidonet.org>
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 93 20:10:00 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:3603/326 - SPPE, St Petersburg FL
Lines: 100

                 How to tell The Big Lie

                         by

                     Matt Giwer

     We might as well learn something from the Branch Davidian episode
regarding people and the press and the gov.

     The incident first came to light with the headlines of four BATF
people killed serving a search warrant.  It took some time before
people were noting the warrant was served with a hand grenade thrown
through a window.

     The Government originally predicted a quick ending after a radio
broadcast and after they announced he had agreed.  He apparently did
not agree or did not trust them or whatever, we may never know.

     About a week passed before it became a topic of interest to the
media rather interestingly also in that when the media became bored
and were giving it minimum coverage there was the final assault.

     The media responded with a bare minimum of facts and a lot of
imagery to fill in the air time.  In a search for material the term
cult was used to suggest sinister things and make references to the
Jamestown mass suicide.

     Example.  Prime Time Live on 18 March 93 ran the same BATF
footage at least three times while talking about subjects that only
matched up in the words and not the actions.  They ran interviews with
ex-members who frankly had very little damaging to say.

     The government was actually the organization feeding this
hysterical misrepresentation of events.

     Example.  The gov sent in their hostage team for the only reason
I can see as the nearest equivalent they had.  The Gov then refered to
people as "being released" rather than "deciding to leave."  Since
then I have read here allegations the children were begin held hostage
and that husbands were holding their wives hostage at gun point.
Where did this come from?

     People took the lead and began talking on their own.

     Example.  Noting there has been no public statement by Koresh
since the Wendsday after the start, people here are talking about
Koresh based upon the cult leader image not based upon Koresh.  The
idea of cult conjured was of something evil and sinister ignoring the
literally hundreds of "cults" and "cult leaders" that have been named
since Jim Jones.   We are heard people making claims as to his
motivations and those of his followers.  We are heard regular insights
into the mind of Koresh.  Statements are being made where no
supporting information exists.

     There are many others.

     Example.  We read implicitely and explicitely that the BDs were
armed with the intention of insurrection and over throw of the
government when when no evidence of that ever had any such intention.
This made them the object of hate for those who fear revolution.

     Example.  We read the constant implication that the mere
posession of guns was a crime.  The government from Clinton on down
has refused to identify which laws they were suspected of violating.

     Example.  We heard the constant use of the term "assault weapon"
which, under any definition used in common parlance in this country
are completely legal under Federal Law and under the laws of most
states including Texas.  This made them an object of hate for those
who fear guns.

     Example.  We heard the ridiculously high figure of the Waco
operation costing one million dollars a day (which works to about one
thousand men per shift.  Thus providing a crutch for those who put a
price tag on human life.

     Example.  We heard they were manufacturing methamphetamines
without the slightest evidence of it, connecting them with all the
evils of drugs.  This made them an object of hate for those who fear
drugs.

     Example.  We heard "concerns" over child abuse of which there was
absolutely no evidence but that tear- and knee- jerking allegation has
been made over and over from the President on down without the
slighest reason to believe it.  This made them the object of hate for
those who fear child abuse.

     Example.  We heard the Branch Davidians blamed for conditions
(lack of food, sanitation) that were caused by the government.  This
made them the object of hate for those who fear child abuse.
.pg
   [ Continued In Next Message... ]

 * SPEED 1.30 >01< * Intruder?  Shoot first, then talk.


--  
Fidonet: 1:3603/326
Internet: mgiwer@mechanic.fidonet.org
Note:  These are only my own opinions...but others may agree!


Article: 68475 of talk.politics.guns
From: mgiwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Matt Giwer)
Sender: ufgate@mechanic.fidonet.org (newsout1.26)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: The big lie, how to d 2/2
Message-ID: <2699.2C90A99D@mechanic.fidonet.org>
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 93 20:10:00 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:3603/326 - SPPE, St Petersburg FL
Lines: 70

   [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]

     Example.  We heard the constant allegation of illegal weapons
without the slightest evidence of any illegal weapons existing and
have been treated to a display of burned, legal weapons by the
government.  Again inspiring fear among those who fear guns.

     Example.  We heard them blamed for responding to a deadly
government attack with deadly force.

     Example.  We heard they shot people wanting to leave when there
are no signs of anyone having been shot.

     Example.  They had enough rations to hold out for years; the
children were starving.

     Example and perhaps the most onerous one.  The Government accused
them of using the children as shields and then excused its final
attack with a concern for the condition under which the children were
living.  The government was in fact using the concerns of the parents
for their children having to live under the conditions the government
imposed.  Cold, callous, cruel use of children and their parents'
concern for them.

     Here we have seven weeks, 51 days, of allegation and innuendo
none of which has substantiation and we have the majority of the
country agreeing with the government.

     We had constant new rumors all of which were instigated by the
government.

     Now watching carefully we have the anatomy of the Big Lie and it
is not what we sort of imagine it to be.  It is not the repetition of
the same lie over and over in some clumsy manner.  It is varying
statements and images around many existing themes.

     It is not one huge lie but rather constant insinuation and half
statements letting people's imagination fill in the missing parts.

     It is not creating new lies but rather connecting the target with
what is already considered evil.

     Confusion was first sown with conflicting statements, conflicting
only over which type of bad it was they were guilty of.  Then the
imagery of terrorism, messiah, allusions to what others have done
started.  (It is interesting to hear the Gov reassure everyone over
and over this was not a Jim Jones situation with no evidence anyone
had ever asked the question.)

     What has happened is the imagination pump has been primed.  In
absense of coherent information people are filling in the blanks with
what they believe to be parallel matters and attributing them to this
incident.  There is nothing new about people filling in the blanks
when information is missing.  It is the classic psych eval of "tell me
about the situation in this picture."

     If you ever need to start a big lie don't ever get the idea you
need a mustache and ten thousand cheering listeners to do it.  The
Koresh incident is a great blue print.

     Is it any wonder the Jews were easy picking for the Nazis?


 * SPEED 1.30 >01< * Intruder?  Shoot first, then talk.


--  
Fidonet: 1:3603/326
Internet: mgiwer@mechanic.fidonet.org
Note:  These are only my own opinions...but others may agree!


