F I D O N E W S -- Vol.12 No.52 (25-Dec-1995) +----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | A newsletter of the | ISSN 1198-4589 Published by: | | FidoNet BBS community | "FidoNews" BBS | | _ | +1-519-570-4176 | | / \ | | | /|oo \ | | | (_| /_) | | | _`@/_ \ _ | | | | | \ \\ | Editors: | | | (*) | \ )) | Donald Tees 1:221/192 | | |__U__| / \// | Sylvia 1:221/194 | | _//|| _\ / | | | (_/(_|(____/ | | | (jm) | Newspapers should have no friends. | | | -- JOSEPH PULITZER | +----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | Submission address: editors 1:1/23 | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | MORE addresses: | | | | submissions=> editor@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca | | Don -- don@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca | | Sylvia max@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | For information, copyrights, article submissions, | | obtaining copies of fidonews or the internet gateway faq | | please refer to the end of this file. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ ======================================================================== Table of Contents ======================================================================== 1. Editorial..................................................... 1 2. Articles...................................................... 2 ***** END CHAT on Dec-24-95 at 15:54:52 ******.............. 2 3. Fidonews Information.......................................... 19 ======================================================================== Editorial ======================================================================== It is the night before Christmas, and the inbound is empty. I have often wondered what I would do if I had to put out the snooze, had no articles, and nothing to say in an editorial. Well, it is only five, perhaps a miracle will occur. Now Six. I think maybe miracles do occur. My cat just came home. I have a chat log from the BBS handy that will explain it, and I will run that as the sole article. I am going to play Santa Claus. Have a joyfull christmas. I am. FidoNews 12-52 Page: 2 25 Dec 1995 ======================================================================== Articles ======================================================================== ***** BEGIN CHAT on Dec-10-95 at 20:15:52 with --------------- ****** Thanks! hello? Hello! How are you? Fine thanks. I just noticed you logging off. Is this your first time on a BBS? Yes this is. Does It show that much? Nope. Actually, you are a fairly decent typist. Thanks. I enjoy typing. Can you help me out? Sure. What would you like to know? How to work it? how to socialize in cyberspace, how to find boards, etc.? I would like to find out on how I can chat with other people? Ok. This is a chat, in terminology. Real time. Then there is echo mail, and netmail. You can "chat" maening converse, in all three. But the other two are not "chatting" in the parlance. Is there certain things you have to know to use these "chat" boards? Not really. It is much like we are doing, except there may be several people involved. The reason that you seldom see it on a free board is that it takes several phone lines, or one very high speed line. Here I only have one phone line out dedicated to the computer, so you can only two way chat, and one has to be me. Very interesting. Is it possible to talk to other people? Hope you don't mind all the questions. Not at all. I socialize on the net a lot. It is always a pleasure to teach a newcomer the pleasures of the medium. Anyway, Most of the stuff here is "chat", but it takes place over days. Sort of like a combination chain letter CB channel. That is a echo. Echos are ussually subject based, like a technical echo, or a writers echo. Each person can replay to any letter, so that you get a sort of conversation going in letter form. Thanks for taking the time out and explain this to me. Seeing that I am a new user, what would you recommend me do next? FidoNews 12-52 Page: 3 25 Dec 1995 Well, I would start reading a couple of echos on a regular basis for a day or two. Once you have a feel for the tone of the echo, then post a message or two, and get involved. You should try a few different boards, and a few differnt echos. Not sure what to recogmend. I take it you are in your late twenties? No, not exactly. I just turned 22. But believe me, I feel a lot older. Would you be offended if I asked how old you were? You don't have to a nswer if you don't want. Anyways, I will take your advice. I am an old 48 year ol hippy. 49 in Jan. Anyway, I would recogmend SWO_CHAT echo, and the Thoughts echo for a start. Thoughts is a more intelectual echo. (god my spelling is rotten> Chat tend to be a bit frivolous, lot of punning, very clique-like? There is the NORML and the guitar echos here, that I get for my own reading, though I seldon post in either. Anyway, the best way is to look around. You go to the "M"essage area, and pick an echo with the "A"rea command. Then just follow instructions to real messages. They are numbered, and read from 1 to --- Thanks for all the help. By the way, your spelling is not that bad. I always seem to make the stupidest mistakes. How do I get off this board if I want to try another one? You were logging out when you appeared to get trapped in the editor. That happened because you hit the "Y" key to the leave a message to SYSOP question. When we exit chat, then you will be logged out. Ok. Thanks for the help, and maybe we can talk again. sure thing. TTYL ***** END CHAT on Dec-10-95 at 20:33:56 ****** ***** BEGIN CHAT on Dec-24-95 at 12:17:04 with --------------- ****** hello? hi, how are you? Good thanks. Thought I'd just cut in and wish a a happy holidays. I hope you have a great and safe holiday! Do you have many plans? None confirmed. I have several invites, but am in a bit of a hiatus, waiting to decide where and what. I'm just fooling around the computer, until my relatives get here. Actually I have about 5 hours to go yet! How do you like the board? Well, since I am sysop , it is about what I want. How long have you had this board up and going? Do you have any desires to start another one? This one has been running about 7 years. Not really. This board is basically for my own use, and for anybody else that wants to use it. FidoNews 12-52 Page: 4 25 Dec 1995 My brother wants to start a board. Is there a lot of work to start one up? Cost? Well, the only real cost is the hardware and the phone line. I pay another $8 per month to get the fidonet echos, but then I am heavily into mail, and the connection to the net is the main reason that I use the board. There is a *lot* of work at the start, because you have to set it up and learn to set it up, which is the heavy part. Once it is done, it runs itself. Have you heard of/used America Online or/and Prodigy? Yes, they are both commercial internet providors. Fidonet is an amateur network (and far older than either of those). Internet is/was a government net, and still is dominated by the governmental agencies. Far bigger now ... fidonet has only 35,000 computers or so while internet is in the millions. However, several hundred thousand people to talk to seems like enough to me, and I have friends here. The fidonet people are the ones that *invented* the net. I always wanted to try both of the above nets, I guess you would say, but I heard the price tag for using them is very high. What do you think of other boards? Do you feel that you are competeing for the users? No. Not at all. I talk to people in the echos, and by mail. That would be like two mail boxes having a competition. I suppose that you look at things very differently when you are *part* of the net, instead of being a net user. I talk mostly to other sysops ... we publish the net newspaper (fidonews) out of here, it goes out every sunday to all nodes, and I am the editor. That means that I get a lot of mail, and talk to a lot of the movers and shakers in the net on a regular basis. It is difficult to think of my board as anything but a mail drop component in the net. Anything else is very provincial. I always think that if you are using one board, and mention another board, that sysop might be offended. Actually I was told by a friend who has been using a board for many years, that you should never talk about another board, or the benefits that it might have compared to the board you are currently on. How would you feel? Would you feel offended? No. My board is set up for *me*. If others like it as well, then they are welcome. But most people are not like me at all, and should look for what suits them. For a start, I am a lot older than a lot of sysops. I am far more concerned about what people say than where they happen to be sitting when they say it. I do get concerned about certain boards ... for example, kiddy porn boards give us a bad name ... I tend to not have a lot of compassion? for the sysops that run them. I personally do not think age should determine how you run a board, or do anything for that matter. Plus, you might think you are old, and others do not see you the same. As for those boards that contribute to child abuse, etc. I don't think they should be up and running. Can't the police step in and do something about them? Sure, and if they get bad enough, they do. However you cannot legilate FidoNews 12-52 Page: 5 25 Dec 1995 morality. There are boards that are rude, theer are boards that are silly, there are boards that are trivial. I carry the NORML echo, for example. (National association for the legalization of marijauna). Lots of people would condem me for that. I have a strong belief in freedom of speach ... where does it end and what is forbidden start? As to age, it should not make a difference, and it does not make a difference per sey. However, experience and maturity do make a difference, and like it or not, you do get more of both as you age. By reading some of what you're writing, it sounds like you are "old", I'm not judging or anything, and you don't have to tell, but how old are you? Do you find that most of the board users are young, or do they relate to you better if they are around your age? Well, I am 48. 49 in 3 weeks. There are people of all ages on the net, and I do not really think of the users on this board as anything but net members. They are all that. I talk to few people under about 21-22 in letters or echoes, as I find them ... young, I suppose. That is true in real life as well, though. I think the youngest really close friend I have is 25. Most people much younger than that have very little in common with me. What would I talk about? School? It has been 25 years, and the last 7 of them were unniversity. I hardly remember high school. If really pressed, I might remember one or two teacher's names. Well, seeing that I'm under 25, I guess we don't have anything in common. What made you come up with the questions in the "Thoughts" area? Which ones? Wasn't there one about..What is God?..What is Art?..etc.. those. Ok. Curiousity about what others thought. That and the fact that I am programming (or attempting to) sentience, and those are germaine questions. I found that when a friend of mine answered, or I should say replied to a comment coming from someone about the What is God? question, she kind of got knocked down for believing something else.. Shouldn't everyone have their own opinion on a subject? For example, I personally don't go to church or do anything else concerning that. Does that make me a bad person?? I* don't think so, but then I am a born again athiest. I wanted to hea what others thought, and how we dagreed/disagreed. As to whether or not everybody should have their own definition ... sure. But that is the point. Philology is the study of words. If we each have a vocabulary that means an entirely different thing, then how do we communicate? I probably should say that maybe we do have something in common. I personally don't believe that there is a heaven or hell. My family kind of "bugs" me about that. I enjoy reading about things like the Occult, and people from that area, and they say that I shouldn't be doing things like that. Do you have a problem from your peers about what your beliefs are? How do you handle it, or reply when they say something? FidoNews 12-52 Page: 6 25 Dec 1995 I just state the truth, as I know it. "I beleive this". "what do you beleive". I do not tend to argue, so much as attempt to define my own position so that others understand me, and to understand them as well. Sometimes we disagree entirely. Mary, one of my best friends, is a born again. We argue constantly, but their *is* common ground. In fact, the very fact that we both consider moral questions, and the nature of good and evil as Important questions makes us far more similar than different. Most people do not really give a damn. I like to think that there is a difference between good and evil. But I think your definition and my definition would be a little different. I think everyone should respect people's beliefs etc. Don't you think it would cause less problems? No. Should I, for example, respect the beliefs of someone that thinks killing people is a "good" thing? What if it is me they want to kill? Is that the only grounds for thinking it "bad"? Now, when it comes to crime, then yes, we should not respect someone. What I mean is say if someone is standing on the corner preaching about God, etc... if you don't believe it, walk away. Don't stand there, and argue with the person, to get your belief across. It's the same thing about cen sorship. If you find something, like a video, or a song, offensive, then turn it off, don't sit there and complain about it. What if they are preaching that all witches should be burned at the stake, or the vieo is a snuff movie that you know someone was tortured to death to make? Well, I would still turn it off or walk away. I know you probably don't believe me, but it's true. Because of what I believe in, I get pushed down about all the time. I basically say, if you don't like it, then don't listen to it, or read about it, and then I leave. I am not going to change for anyone. I think others should follow the same thing. You don't like something, then leave it alone. I agree 100%. Problem is, that others do not always leave you alone. In fact, they tend to grab you, and hang you up on a cross. If I had a motto, it would be "harm no one, and ignore anyone not hurting people". Tough, sometimes though to know where hurt starts. I have a close friend who is a crack addict. When she gets the bit in her teeth, she reaches the stage of doing blowjobs in parking lots for $20 worth of crack. Then she shows up here after about a five day binge, and I help her clean up, and feed her enough to get some flesh back on her bones. After a few days, she gets that look in her eye again, and off she goes. Now. I know who her suppliers are. What do *I* do? I say that if someone is an addict, and if they don't want to help theirself, then no one else can help them. You have to have it in your head that you want to stop, you want to clean up. No one else can do that for them. If you went and ratted on her suppliers, is that really helping her? If she wants the shit bad enough, she'll get it. All true, but only part of the truth. Addicts become addicts because there are great gaping holes in their lifes. In most cases, they are abused FidoNews 12-52 Page: 7 25 Dec 1995 children, in this case raped fairly regularly by her father until she left at 14. She will never *make* that decision until she has some self respect, and she can only get that by having someone teach her. That means by respecting her (I've been there and done it. I know). So to get even as far as you say, SOMEONE has to help. I have talked that very thing over with her on many occasions (in fact, it has become a bit of an in joke with us ... I will say "made any decisions yet?" and off we will go.). As to the suppliers, I also tend to agree, and have actually bought her junk when she was in a really bad way. It is a bit like having a cat, you cannot tell a cat what to do. You cannot tell anybody what to do. You can, though, listen. Well, I believe in tough love. Nothing is worst, than someone doing something they know is wrong, and then someone help them. I'm not saying you're doing something wrong, infact you sound like a great person for being there for her. But maybe, if she knew that you weren't going to be there for her, to feed her, etc..maybe she would try for good to clean up. Nothing is worst than having no where to turn when you need help. It may sound mean, but I would try it, maybe just once. Or sit down with her, and tell her, next time you come a knockin' I won't be here. You are naive. She is 25. She has survived on the street for five years, on her own for 11. Every time she leaves, it is because I tough it out, and turn her down. If I wanted a permament hooker on staff, I woulod just have to do the same thing as her father did, and pay for all. The reason she ends up leaving is because I will not give her money for dope, nor will I fuck her for money. That is also the reason she comes back. I think she needs some help. Not to be mean, but it's like you have her back, and then you let her do what ever, and she leaves. Then along she comes again, and you let her back in. It may be mean to say, but it sounds like she's using you plain and simple. Why do you let her do that? Doesn't she have anyone else to go to? I would not let anyone use me, if they were not willing to get help for their problem. What help would you suggest? A six month jail term? As to why, I told you, she is my cat. Do you have a cat? Does it use you? Do you happen to be fond of it anyway? Would you throw it out on the street because it likes to run loose at night? I *am* the help she is getting for her problem. She never comes back until she is off dope for a few days. She comes here to get help staying off. She has never managed to stay more than a day or two. No, jail won't help. But there are places people can go if they are SE RIOUS about getting help. As for my cat. First off, a cat and people are two different things. Plus if you do it right, you can train any animal, cat, dog, or as far as that goes, a person, to do right things. I take time, and patience and love, to train my cat, and she has learned that there are certain things that she must never do. If this friend of yours can stay off drugs for a "few days", then why can't she take one more step, with your help of course, to remain off them for good? I am taking the time and patience and love required to train my cat as well. Did you cat learn the first day. But then that gets back to your original statement. You said if you did not like a person's ways, then FidoNews 12-52 Page: 8 25 Dec 1995 you walked. mmmm. If I had a friend, that continued to do drugs and I helped her every time. If I fed her, etc.....and she still continued to do that, I would say that I wasn't going to be used anymore. And to answer your question, no my cat did not learn the first day. But mark my words, she learned by the 5th or even a week later. It didn't keep happening every month/year, or whatever. How long had she been doing this? Keep running to you? Fr about a month now. Actually, I have had addict friends before. I am a very patient man. I really commend you for having patience to put up with your friends. Please don't take that the wrong way. I must admit, that sometimes, I can have a short fuse. Plus when someone pisses me off, I can really hold a grudge. I just wish that is someone wanted off drugs, or booze whatever, they would let someone help them instead of saying that there is nothing wrong, and try to handle it themselves, cause obviously they can't. Well, I think that you have been misslead a bit but what I have been saying. First of all, I do not consider it as *having* to have patience. I* think that the life she leads is lousy. It is not one that *I* woul live, and I am nt going to. But *I* am not her. She has the right to live as she wishes. I ENJOY her company when she is here, or I would not have her as a guest. So. Who is using who? It may very well be that I am a busybody that is interfering in her life in a fashion that is not to her benefit? Who is to say? You're right, it's her life and she can live it any damn way she wants. We all should be able to do just that. But, you claim she is a "good" friend, etc.. I imagine you kind of love her in a certain way, then if you really are her good friend, then why would you let her continue to hurt her self, and even hurt you a little? Maybe you are both using each other. Is that right? Sure. to an extent. Yes, I do love her. To a limited extent. The fact is, that I cannot allow myself to get too close, because I figure she is going to turn up dead in the ditch outside my door someday, and I just cannot allow myself to get too attached for that reason. About the way that you would love a big old cat that liked to play on the road. As to "let her continue". She is a friend, not a ward. You cannot seem to understand ... if you CANNOT do anything, then there is only acceptance. That she was not accepted as an individual in the first place, only as a toy that was *allowed* and *let* do things, is the very cause of the whole thing. This is not about drugs. Drugs are symptomatic. Drugs are easy to beat. Life is not. Are you sure there is only one reason you won't let yourself get close to her? Maybe if she knew there was someone who really loved her, and wasn't going to treat her like one of her tricks, she might find a reason to stop the pain that she is maybe causing herself. I know you will probably answer that comment by saying your age, but if you really do care for someone, age should not matter. I know she is a friend, not a ward, as you said, but friends would do anything to help another friend, that is, if they were willing to take the help that was being offered to them. I FidoNews 12-52 Page: 9 25 Dec 1995 wouldn't say drugs are easy to beat, cause from you say about this girl, she can't beat them. Maybe if she had someone, that would kind of make a commitment to her, and show her that she is special and she is a beautiful person, she might reconsider and get help for that person who cares so much about her?? Now you are starting to understand. After 11 years of abuse, and being taken advantage of by 15-20 people a night for 5 years, it does take time to get through to someone. Keep in mind that "love" and sex are quite different things. As to my age, I am a 49 year old hippy. I am ageless when something like this is concerned. I would make love to her in a second if that was the answer. It is not. I took her christmas shopping day before yesterday. She got a new dress. I bought her pearl earings white ones, for christmas. If I am real lucky, she will walk in this door before tomorrow morning, and I will take her home to her two children for tomorrow morning. I do not have a lot of hopes at the moment. I know that love and sex are two different things. Does she know how you feel about her. Even if you told her that you loved her, in a certain way, and that you really are upset seeing her when she comes in after a terrible night. Maybe all she needs is a little hope that someone can love her, and respect her and treat her like a woman not like a toy. That was very sweet of you to get her the pearls. I must admit, she is lucky to have someone like you to care for her. I really hope she does come to your place, and get the chance to see her children. They must really miss her, if she doesn't go there often, or does she? It has been three months. Sure I have told her I love her. She knows that. She comes back, in spite of that fact that I nag her. But there is a very fine line between being upset, and using guilt trips to control someone. It is like hitting a cat. It will not work. The only thing that works is time, and patience. Guilt trips won't do anything. If anything, it will make the person do it more. Plus nagging, or telling someone not to do something, will make the person turn around and do it more. I'm a good example of that. Actually, I about 5 years ago, I wanted to get a tattoo. I went to my dad, he said no. Then I went to my mom, they are divorced for many years, and she said that she didn't approve of it, but if she said no, I would go behind her back, and do it anyways, so about a week later, she went with me downtown, and I got a tattoo. Now, I would sit down with your friend, and explain that you think it is wrong, which I hope you do agree that it is wrong?! And tell her that is she wants help, you will go with her and go through the steps with her. Maybe if she knew that someone was going to be by her side as she took the required steps, it might make it easier. Read that first part again, and tell me about tough love. She knows. She has to make up her mind. As she puts it, "I have a choice betwwen facing my future, and facing my past. I have not decided yet". At least she knows that she has to face something. Whether it be her past/future or present. I don't think there is someone "keeping" her on drugs or doing tricks is there?? She doesn't come across as being liek that. Anyways, I really wish her the best, even if my previous comments say otherwise. I hope you believe that. FidoNews 12-52 Page: 10 25 Dec 1995 Of course I do. There is no one keeping her. In fact, that is why I have stuck in there as her friend. She has never lied or stolen from me, and she has always been up front. That, quite frankly, is absolutely astonishing in an addict. Most would sell thier souls when it is at it's worst. They would regret it after, but they would. I take it you have no experience with hard core addicts? It is not ... it is evel. evil. evil. evil. Well, I don't have any experience with drug addicts, you're right, but with alchol I do. My first real serious relationship ended because of that. He was always drinking, and would end up in the hospital twice because of drinking and driving. Put it this way, the last time he went in the hospital but never came out. The hard thing to accept, was that he had gone through the program to clean up. I even went to many meetings with him, and he appeared to be off the booze. But then one night, we got in a fight about something, and he took off with 5 friends of ours. About 8 hours later I got a call from the cops, and he was dead on arrival at the hospital. I was furious at first, because of all the time we spent getting him clean. I even gave him a choice. The booze or our relationship, he chose the relationship. And got clean. I guess, you can never tell, if someone is clean or not. Even if they say they are. I am sorry. Booze, in my opinion, is one of the hardest drugs to beat. BTW, I do not drink, though I do smoke a lot of pot. I consider it far less dangerous, and far less harmfull. I do not like what booze does to my head or my body. Addiction is a terrible thing. With Lisa and I, it is far different. I have had my children, I am not looking for a life partner. I have time to spend on simple friendships. That makes a big difference in how you deal with these things. I suppose that a lot of it is just that I do have the time to be able to pursue a relationship that will probably end in dissapointment. That is why I say (said) that it is like having a pet cat, though. There is a difference between loving your cat (and one can love a cat quite a lot), and having the same entity as your spouse. A lot of it has to do with equality as well. The fact is, that Lisa cannot be a "full partner" in any relationship until she gets the monkey off her back. She knows that, and I know that. It would be quite different for you. Can I ask you a question? Why would you want to take the time and pursue a realtionship if you know it will probably end in dissappointment? Do you think you will outlive your cat? I'm sure I will. But what does that have to do with you? Why would you have a cat, and learn to love it when you know it is just going to die anyway? Well, that's like saying you can't love anybody, cause eventually they will die??? If you start to avoid relationships because they will/can/might end in pain, then you also miss all the joy. Even our relationship has it's good moments. A stolen hug here and there. Just being glad to see someone is FidoNews 12-52 Page: 11 25 Dec 1995 still alive and well. We laugh a lot. You kind of got me confused. Above you said you didn't want to start a relationship, in fear of ending in disappointment, but then just now, you said, that if you avoid relationships, you'll miss the joy. That's why I asked you why you feel like you can't pursue a relationship? relationships vs relationships. Too few words. There is a limit to the kind of emotional involvement that I will allow myself. I love this kid a lot, but I also know that there is a really good chance of her being dead tomorrow. You cannot plan anything, for example, unjder those circumstances. It limits everything. You plan, if at all, perhaps a day or two ahead. The kind of relationship you had with your friend is impossible if you cannot plan more than a day or two ahead. Not sure how to explain. Words just do not cut it at times. I agree. Sometimes you want to explain something, but you just can't get the words out. I really don't like to plan ahead. I live for the now!! Well, I like to do that to. But it is also a luxury to be able to. I run a bussiness for example. I do projects that take 3-5 years. As one gets older, as well, one tends to tackle bigger jobs because one learns how to. That *is* planning. I work full time Monday to Friday, and anything after that , I do not know what is going on. I get asked to go out lots, but because of work, and when the weekend comes, I like nothing better, than staying home, putting on cds, and relaxing. I always want to do things, before "my time" comes, but I guess you never worry about that, when you're my age. maybe, maybe not. I play a lot of music, and jam with friends a lot. I go back and forth between being a hermit and being a social butterfly. There is a great gang of us that play, paint, write, etc., and we tend to have lots of parties, though they are ussually more gabfests and jam sessions than anything. What kind of music do you play? I also tend to be a hermit. I like being alone, but then once in awhile, I'll be gone, and visiting every bar in town with friends. I don't go to drink, but I love to go for the music. I especially love to go to Stages, when they have cover bands there. I am a bluesman. Tod is a classical nut (He plays piano, concert class). One of the fellows is a flamnco guitarist. Many are "folk". I hang arround with a lot of professional musicians. We tend to congrgate after the bars close, as they are normally playing. Do you have a favorite type of music, or do you generally like it all? The blues. But I like most music. I like music that is live, and where I am there enjoying a rapor with the artist. I seldom listen to classical on CD, for example, but when Tod gets a case of beer in him, he starts in on chopin, and I always enjoy listening. So do most of the people that hang out here. Silence will descend when he starts to play. I also like some blues, but my favorite is the classic rock. I'm a Stones FidoNews 12-52 Page: 12 25 Dec 1995 fanatic. I saw them twice last year. They were unbelievable. Who says you can't rock, when you get past 30... So tell me, where is "here", like you mentioned above? Your place? (BTW, I *have* jamed with Keith Richards). I have an apartment (studio, space, whatever) that I built in a factory. It is on Victoria St. just down from Park. So, you jammed with Keef, where abouts? In Toronto. Another friend here is a violinist, and played with Tom Petty (back him up on his first two albums). I have been playing the blues now for about 30 years, and you do meet a lot of people over the years. Richards was in town for a benefit concert at the time, and we ended up at a friends place in TO. The friend is a blues pianist. Was this around 77-79? No, about mid 80's. I have idolized Mr. Richards for years. I have only liked the Stones partly because of him. I had tickets to see him live, solo tour "Talk is Cheap" tour, but I had to work, needless to say it was the worst time of my life!hee hee Well, the singer, whats his name? is a real prick. I like rock as well, and am thinking of going down to see seeger in the new year. The dates for the tour are not firm yet, but as soon as they are, I'll see if I can get tickets. I tend to like fairly classic rock, not a fan of heavy metal nor of techo-pop. Are you talking about Jagger? I can not stand him. You're right he's a prick. Now, I do like some rock stuff. I've seen Guns N' Roses three times, why I don't know. I don't like them now. I've seen Robert Plant 5 years ago, and I also saw Page/Plant, a disappointment. I listen to AC/DC and Kiss, which I have seen. I'm going to see AC/DC again in March in T.O.. I have not seen any of the younger bands. I listen to more of the older stuff, but have albums across the board. Everything from T rex to the butthole surfers. I like the more traditional stuff. Going right back to the 20's, and some of the classical blues. That, of couse, is where the stones got most of their material. From people like willie dixon. That was what got me turned on to the blues. I heard so much talking about it from the Stones, that I thought I would check it out. I also love the work Keith did with John Lee Hooker. I think almost everything is influenced from the blues, and older artists like the Yardbirds, Cream, Zeppelin, Stones etc.. (Those are my contemporaries, not the older groups ) Have you listened to Emerson, lake and palmer? Sorry about that comment!! hee hee. ACtually to be honest, no I haven't listened to E.L.P.. I'm sure I have heard their songs, but would recognize them by the music, not by the song titles. FidoNews 12-52 Page: 13 25 Dec 1995 Do you like honky tonk woman blues? Explain? What exactly is that? Don't Laugh!!! Stones greatest hit of all time. Oh shit, that! I wasn't sure what you meant. I imagine you're rolling on the floor laughing about that hey? To answer your question yes, I like it. My fave Stones song is "Sympathy For The Devil". k. Then get the E.L.P. CD with honky tonk train blues on it. You should also try Long John Baldry. You would like both immensly. Thanks, I'll have to check both of them out. I always spend tons of cash down at Dr.Disc and other record stores in town. You should see my cd collection. I do have a record player, but hardly use it. I find cds easier to use. I hope I'm not taking up too much of your time? When I want to say goodbye, I will. I *do* know how to say no, regardless of the impression I might have given so far. I just thought maybe you had something more important to do, being Christmas eve and all that?? Cleaning the house. Want to come and clean mine then? nope. Don't want to clean here, but sorta gotta. I know how that feels. I hate having to do something, but I know I have to! Hey, do you have any tattoos? Just wondering! Yes. I have one, on my right shoulder. It is the worm of ourbourous, and is/was a wedding ring. Cool, I have, only 8 so far.. I got addicted to them. But, I have plans for one more, it's a Christmas gift from a friend, well, I won't lie, it's from my mom. What of? Let's see. On my right ankle I have a dagger through a heart, with a purple rose around the blade. On my right wrist, I have like two hearts joined together by a band, with roses etc.. it looks like a bracelet. Then on my left hand I have Woodstock, you know the bird?! On left shoulder there's a cupid there, on left ankle, Gene Simmons from Kiss, with full makeup, on right side os chest, I got my horoscope animal, the scorpion, and on the let side of chest I got Mickey mouse wizard. And the new one? Well, it will be a music one. I want the Stones logo, or a guitar player. Haven't fully agreed on one yet. FidoNews 12-52 Page: 14 25 Dec 1995 Body art. My last wife was a painter (as is my son), and I always wanted her to design me a tatoo. Her work was ideal for tatoos, she was a colourist. I haven't "graduated" to body piercing yet... What do you think of it? I* think it silly, but then I am a wimp. No way that I am going to let anybody give me pain for decorative purposes. Had a lady friend over here the other night that had nipple rings in each nipple that she was making me cringe by looking at. Depends on the crowd you hang out with, I suppose. My neighbour has a belly button ring. Swears it did not hurt. mmmm ouch. I feel the same way about it as I do about dope, but to a lessor extent. Ehy hurt yourself? When I went and got my last tattoo, there was this guy there getting his belly button pierced. I was kind of watching. Buddy looked like he was in severe pain. I don't think I would do that. But I wanted to get a barbel in my tongue. Can you imagine that? One of the ladies in the chat echo just did that. Says she would not do it again. Cannot eat yet. It has been a week. Her name is Jessica. You should ask her about it. I should. I guess for right now, I'll settle with earrings. I have 6 in each, plus up higher on my left ear I have another one. I always thought it would be cool to get one in my nose, but then it became a fad, so I decided not to. I think for now, I'll stick with tattoos, they don't hurt, at least I don't think they do. Mine did not. I think that age does have a difference in things like that. Culture changes over the years, and different things have different levels of acceotance. When I was growing up, *no* man wore jewelry, of any sort. Perhaps, at most, a ring. Tattoo's were for sailors. Etc. Times change, but a lot of our early attitudes stay with us. Personally, I have nothing against body art. But it has little appeal to me. How long ago did you get your tattoo? Would you get another one if you had the chance to? What would it be? Three years ago. I do have the chance to, every day. I have not yet. The one that I have was more of a political statement than anything. But then all decent art is a political statement. Do you know any tattoosits in town? I take it you live in K-W? Yes. I know only the one on King by Cedar. He is quite good as a craftsman, but I do not like his originals. However, if you have what you want as a picture, he does a good job. Are you talking about Tattoo Art? Or the Skin Shop? The skin shop. That's where I got all mine. Only one was one of his. The others he drew, FidoNews 12-52 Page: 15 25 Dec 1995 or I brought in a picture to show him what I wanted. I have brought 3 friends there to him, plus my mom got one 3 years ago. It was a mother's day gift for her. I think he does great work. I like his work, I am not fussy about him as an artist. A bit to biker/punk for me. There's a new shop up on Belmont. I believe it's called Tora Tattoo. A friend of mine knows the one guy that supposedly works there, he's suppose to be the best. Don't know. I have so many artist friends that I doubt I would have any tatooist design a tatoo for me. I would have a friend do it. I have a bit of an art collection here, and like visual art. This guy, was supposedly studying under George or Ken at Tattoo Art, and he's cheaper than them. I wish I knew someone close, that was a tattoo artist, it might be cheaper than going downtown. Why a tatoo artist? Why not an artist. I don't know. Would an "artist" be able to do a tattoo, like a tattoo artist? I guess they would be able to eh? If an artist drwas it, the tattooist can put it on your skin. That's true. I guess I would have to find someone, that was an artist then right? Cause I can not draw at all. Yep. Though that is a huge field. There are dozens of artists in K/W. In fact, there are about 25 galleries, though only one or two worth damn. Most are for the tourist types that buy a painting to match the decor of a room. There may be dozens of artists in the K/W area, but where do you start to look if you are not used to looking for one? I don't know. That is like saying where do you start looking for albums when you have never heard any music. Go to art shows. I could rhymr off a dozen names, but they would not mean a lot to you. I could take you to twenty or thirty friend's houses to see their collections, tht would give the same kind of exposure that listen to a radio for a day would give you to music. I'll have to check out art shows then. I would like to find someone that was willing to sit down and draw a design that I would be describing to them. So many times, you go to a tattoo shop, and it's like they want your money, and draw what they think you want. That's why I always get a picture of what I want before I go down to the skin shop. Well, a lot of it depends on your trust in the artist. I am currently buying a sculpture on time ($50/month for a year) and have no idea at all what it will be. I just like the artist's work. I do that with bands. Whether or not, I have heard any songs off the new FidoNews 12-52 Page: 16 25 Dec 1995 album, I just buy it, cause I like the band. Sometimes though that is a bad idea, cause I get the cd, and it's like, why the hell did I buy this? Then I'm stuck with a $20 cd. Collecting dust on the shelf. But if you like the band/artist etc..there's no harm in supporting them. Often when that happens, you find you like the work after hearing it several times. The best artists/musicians break new ground all the time. If you are expecting work like their older stuff, you can be dissappointed. On the other hand, if you choose your artists well, then often they will teach you new ground. I agree about what you said, that if you expect the new stuff to sound like the old stuff you will be disappointed. That's probably why I stick with the 5-6 bands that I listen to all the time. I kind of stick to them cause I know their stuff, I like their stuff and that's it. But sometimes that's not good, then you don't open yourself to try new things. amen. A bad habit of the old.. I have found that since I hang around with musicians, I have started to listen to a lot of new material. That is one of the great things about being active in the arts instead of just being a spectator. You learn more. The artists all are ... artists. I think it has to do with some bands, that if they become big making an album one way, they want to continue making albums the same way.. Now, that can be bad, like they're just trying to re-sample an album, but in some ways, if it isn't broken, why fix it? A good example would be AC/DC. You swear that if you hear one album they all sound that smae. It's true, but they have become a multi-million group for doing it that way. The greats do not. Look at Dylan. Look at Elton John. They change. Sometimes into areas that require different fans, but they do not allow themselves to become boring. The world changes. Yesterday's statement of newness is today's cliche. You're right. Certain bands can go to other fields of music, and still be able to do it great. But if they have the fans supporting them the way theya re doing something, they won't change. I think they need a kick in the ass, to change their directions. Maybe. I have known a lot of performers over the years, and there is a definite difference between the ones that I consider great, and the ones that I consider "workers". I have a friend (female) that wants to be a star. She is not that bad, but she is also not that good. 90% of the reason that she is not that good is because she doe not want to make great music, she wants to be a recording star. If she hit a groove that worked, she would flog it to death. Sylvia, (my ex painter wife) was a true artist. The second a painting was done, she hated it and wanted it out of her sight. It was old work. Been there, done that. Time to say/do something else. The best artists are that way. It is a striving for perfection, or even a striving to understand what perfection is. I think that after close to 50 years, I am starting to finally understand art/music. Right. Nothing is worse than someone playing the hell out of something. I hate some radio stations that only play like one or two song from one FidoNews 12-52 Page: 17 25 Dec 1995 band. Ex:1090. Sorry, but they play like two songs from Van Morrison. For Example. I'm sure he has more then 2 songs out there. It's like they're afraid to play something new. That's why I perfer 107, or 95.5 cause they play a variety. I hate hearing the same songs all the time. You get sick of them and don't want to hear them anymore. As a listener. Naw. it is the same thing I think. Do you listen only to music, or do you get into the other asrts. Theatre? Books? Paintings? Movies? Well, the only time I was ever at the theatre was to see Cats. Loved it by the way. I'm an avid reader. I read everything from true crime, biographies, new age, etc.. I've never been a painting collecter. But sometimes I will go to a picture shop and I love some art work that they will have. As for movies, I'm a fan of horror movies. I don't like the serious ones. Are you interested in any of the above that you mentioned? I like books, and am an avid reader (average a book a day). I like sculture and paintings, am so so on movies. I do not have a TV. Oh, ok. I would die without 1)phone 2)tv 3)stereo. Those would probably be the three things I would take to a deserted island with me. Isn't that sad?hee hee. I don't get the chance to read a book a day, usually it takes me about a week, now that's depending on how many pages. Usually paperbacks don't take that long. I read nearly all paperbacks, as I buy what I read. I budget $100 per week for books. I tend to loath TV. It is so damned passive that it warps people's brain. There is also the fact that the programming is specifically designed by experts to brainwash into thinking in certain terms. They are good enough that even when you realize what is going on, it is insiduous. I do not like having my mind tinkered with. The only time I am actually in front of the tv, is on Friday nights. Other than that, I don't watch tv at all. Being at work all day, I miss the garbage shows like talk shows and soap operas. But from 9pm to 10pm on Fridays, I am in front of it. I think it's alright once in awhile to watch tv, as long as you are not in front of it like 12+ hours a day. I find it rather amusing to compare people that heve TV's with those that do not. It induces paranoic thinking. Most people, for example, think we live in a violent society. In fact, we live in the least violent society in the history of mankind. People that watch tv all the time, though sometimes know whats going on around the world. If I had to choose of watching the news or reading about it. I would watch it. I like have pictures describe something. If you pictures, it's easier to understand, plus I rarely read the paper. Only the sports/entertainment section. In fact, there is no news on TV. What there is is programming to get you to watch the commercials. There is absolutely no incentive whatsoever for any TV crew to tell you any truth whatsoever. They film what is most exciting to watch, regardless of it's truth, and sucker you into thinking it is news. I have *watched* riots being filmed, where the rioters stoped FidoNews 12-52 Page: 18 25 Dec 1995 the riot for the commercials, and started them up agian when the cammera man was ready. It is nearly all staged, and nearly all cheap explotation. Well, it may be that. But come one, you have to admit, it's entertainment to some degree, and we all need this in our lives. Sure. But when it reaches the point where most people cannot tell reality from unreality, then it is called psychossis in technical terms. There is a big difference between being entertained by a work of fiction, and gaining a totally false world view based on what specific monied interests want you to beleive. The TV programs are controled by about 10,000 people in all. That is a pretty small section of humanity to trust your world view to. Right. I guess we should be able to tell reality from fiction. But when tv is in such a big demand, it won't go away. A good example..drugs. If there was no one out there buying them, they wouldn't be there. I don't necessarily think drugs should be legal or iilegal. I think people should have enough self control to know when they have taken too much. The situation with TV is closer to being fed drugs by specific people for a specific purpose. The tv is regulated, and to *show* anything on it, you have to have loads of money, and be approved by the powers that be. I can write a books and print it myself. I can sing, I can play. I can watch* TV, period. I cannot affect what is on. It's sole opurpose is get you to watch the commercials. They do not allow people to do shows in prime time, etc. You are watching the most heavily censored and propoganda machine in the history of man. Even Hitler did not have that kind of control over the media of his time. All of that power is used for one purpose. To get you to spend your money the way they want you to. For example, my expnses have gone down from about $6000 per month to about $1800 per month since I got rid of the TV. I have no idea why. I have not tried to cut back in any way. It's amazing how much having tv can cost. I only have basic tv. And it's like $100 for 3 months. I sit back and think what I could do with that money if I didn't spend it on that. But because I have always had tv there since I was real little, it's like a neccessity. I have never gone without it. I honestly think I could go with out it, but I don't have the push to do it. It is not just the direct cost. TV *is* fashion, for example. Take it away, and people would have to look at their neighbours to find out what to do. When a TV goes on, ebverybody stops talking. It stops conversation in any room dead. I'll bet you have not covered as many serious topics as we have today in months, with anybody in person. This medium appeals to people raised on TV. It is interactive, as opposed to passive. That's exactly right. Ever since I got my computer, like a month ago, I barely watch tv. I do use my computer mostly for the word processor options, cause I like to do a lot of writing, plus I do have a few CD-Roms that I constantly play with, like the Stones one. And yes, I have not "talked" about a variety things like we have today, to anyone for a while. FidoNews 12-52 Page: 19 25 Dec 1995 You WRITE!!!! Well, I really have enjoyed our conversation. I do hope we can do it again. I wish you a great holiday, and have a great new years. Don't party too much!! Take super care, and bye for now!! k. . BTW, if you see a copy of ZONA in the stores this month, there are two of my stories in it. TTYL. ***** END CHAT on Dec-24-95 at 15:54:52 ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ======================================================================== Fidonews Information ======================================================================== ------- FIDONEWS MASTHEAD AND CONTACT INFORMATION ---------------- Editors: Donald Tees, Sylvia Maxwell Editors Emeritii: Thom Henderson, Dale Lovell, Vince Perriello, Tim Pozar Tom Jennings "FidoNews" BBS FidoNet 1:1/23 BBS +1-519-570-4176, 300/1200/2400/14400/V.32bis/HST(DS) more addresses: Don -- 1:221/192, don@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca Sylvia- 1:221/194, max@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca (Postal Service mailing address) FidoNews 128 Church St. Kitchener, Ontario Canada N2H 2S4 voice: (519) 570-3137 sylvia: (519) 579-8029 Fidonews is published weekly by and for the members of the FIDONET INTERNATIONAL AMATEUR ELECTRONIC MAIL system. It is a compilation of individual articles contributed by their authors or their authorized agents. The contribution of articles to this compilation does not diminish the rights of the authors. Opinions expressed in these articles are those of the authors and not necessarily those of FidoNews. Authors retain copyright on individual works; otherwise FidoNews is Copyright 1995 Donald Tees. All rights reserved. Duplication and/or distribution permitted for noncommercial purposes only. For use in other circumstances, please contact the original authors, or the eds. OBTAINING COPIES: The most recent issue of FidoNews in electronic FidoNews 12-52 Page: 20 25 Dec 1995 form may be obtained from the FidoNews BBS via manual download or Wazoo FileRequest, or from various sites in the FidoNet and Internet. PRINTED COPIES may be obtained by sending SASE to the above paper-mail address. INTERNET USERS: FidoNews is available via FTP from ftp.fidonet.org, in directory ~ftp/pub/fidonet/fidonews. Anyone interested in getting a copy of the INTERNET GATEWAY FAQ may freq GISFAQ.ZIP from 1:133/411.0, or send an internet message to fidofaq@gisatl.fidonet.org. No message or text or subject is necessary. The address is a keyword that will trigger the automated response. People wishing to send inquiries directly to David Deitch should now mail to fidonet@gisatl.fidonet.org rather than the previously listed address. SUBMISSIONS: You are encouraged to submit articles for publication in FidoNews. Article submission requirements are contained in the file ARTSPEC.DOC, available from the FidoNews BBS, or Wazoo filerequestable from 1:1/23 as file "ARTSPEC.DOC". Please read it. "Fido", "FidoNet" and the dog-with-diskette are U.S. registered trademarks of Tom Jennings, and are used with permission. ' ' disgreement is actually necessary, or we'd all have to get in fights or semethin to amuse ourselves,, and create the requisite chaos." -Tom Jennings -- END ------------------------------------------------------------------- FidoNews 12-52 Page: 21 25 Dec 1995