F I D O N E W S -- Vol.11 No.41 (10-Oct-1994) +----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | A newsletter of the | ISSN 1198-4589 Published by: | | FidoNet BBS community | "FidoNews" BBS | | _ | +1-519-570-4176 | | / \ | | | /|oo \ | Small animal psychology and | | (_| /_) | Spiritual guidance Department: | | _`@/_ \ _ | Rev. Richard Visage 1:163/409 | | | | \ \\ | | | | (*) | \ )) | Editors: | | |__U__| / \// | Donald Tees 1:221/192 | | _//|| _\ / | Sylvia Maxwell 1:221/194 | | (_/(_|(____/ | Tim | | (jm) | Newspapers should have no friends. | | | -- JOSEPH PULITZER | +----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | Submission address: editors 1:1/23 | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | MORE addresses: | | | | Don -- don@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca | | Sylvia -- max@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca | | Tim Pozar -- pozar@kumr.lns.com | | David Deitch -- 1:133/411.411, deitch@gisatl.fidonet.org | | | submissions=> editor@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | For information, copyrights, article submissions, | | obtaining copies of fidonews or the internet gateway faq | | please refer to the end of this file. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ ======================================================================== Table of Contents ======================================================================== 1. Editorial..................................................... 2 2. Articles...................................................... 2 My Dear Doctor Logger,...................................... 2 A Warning to N700C.......................................... 4 Subject: ZEC election Candidate............................. 6 New Echo--COUPON............................................ 8 Hello,...................................................... 9 Subject: Formal Policy Complaint............................ 11 Subject: Formal Policy Complaint............................ 18 3. Fidonews Information.......................................... 19 FidoNews 11-41 Page: 2 10 Oct 1994 ======================================================================== Editorial ======================================================================== Thank you to Darr Hoag of 1:2330/4, Jergen Smulders of 2:281/201, Jim Roberts of 1:266/25, and John Souvestre of 1:396/1 ... all four of whom wrote to us notes that their BBS's have all the back issues of the Snooze. Thanks to John, 1:1/23 now also has a complete collection. The last two articles of this issue have the same title. Actually, it should have been the last three, but I concatonated two to get them into the right order. It is one of those huge missives that are basically twenty netmail messages quoting everything from the NC of Butt-fuck Idaho to the president of ford motors and whining for ten pages that nobody ever reads. The essence of the article is the same as most of them. Somebody annoyed someone, the someone whips out everything they can find called policy, and starts reading fine print. Finally they find a paragraph they can use, and issue a *POLICY COMPLAINT*. This one basically *demands* that a moderator be removed because (get this), he claims his LD on his income tax. Yes indeed. That is comercial use, doncha know? It is no secret that I am not a great lover of the law clerk types that go to bed each night clutching their copies of policy to their breasts while they dream dreams of Parry Mason of The Net. But this is getting ridiculous, damnit. The *C positions were created because we need basic work done (remember the nodelist?). We have turned them into positions that only an idiot would touch ... a position that has to spend hours and hours dealing with snivelers who want to be polititions. Now we need Echopol as well? ======================================================================== Articles ======================================================================== Patricia's Pain Palace 19A E. 235th Washington, D.C. The Excited States of Murrica My Dear Doctor Logger, What a wonderful city this is! Perhaps it's just the afterglow apparent in a country that has just conquered another without so much as a stubbed toe to show for it, but Washington is positively ebullient at the moment. Last night, evidently in full celebration, the residents put on what seemed to be a city-wide multi-media show. It was a virtual serenade of burglar alarms and police sirens accompanied by a low thrum of the deep bass beat of rap music, which seems to come from everywhere, and is punctuated by gunshots. What an amazing display. FidoNews 11-41 Page: 3 10 Oct 1994 Signs of the famous American ingenuity are everywhere. Yesterday, while circumnavigating the "beltway" (a huge strip of potholes with outbreaks of occasional pavement which rings the city) I saw a van that had a broken rear door latch. Would an American let them flop about in the wind? No, they seek ways to solve such problems quickly. This particular gent's solution was to put handcuffs on the door handles. I love this country. The Excited States is, however, becoming somewhat exclusive. I had a most difficult time crossing the border, as the U.S. customs service seemed to have mistakenly assumed that I might have been associated with a politically incorrect importation enterprise. Fortunately, I was able to hastily acquire a staff position (with a modest expense account) with Rune's Rag, an Electronic Magazine which emanates from 1:2601/522, and was let in on the strength of my newly obtained Green Card. I won't even begin to explain what Ms. LaBamba did to convince the officials that she should be allowed entry, but I do believe that the officials were so preoccupied by her suitcase full of interesting lingerie and "toys" that the cars were lined up over five kilometres due to the wait. A Mr. Arnold, editor of said publication, arranged our accommodation here at Patricia's Pain Palace, which is decorred almost exclusively in deep red velveteen, which is much to Ms. LaBamba's liking. I've also noticed that the clientele here is rather chi-chi, given the number of limos that pull up to the front. Patricia, whose 300 pounds is rather imposing, evidently dishes out large dollops of discipline, which is heartily enjoyed by her visitors, given the nightly din of thrashing, begging, whining, and groans which emanate from below. Heaven only knows what I'll report on in Rune's Rag after this visit. Just thinking of thrashing, begging and whining brings Region 12 to mind. It is my understanding that the net250 policy complaint tangle between L'il Matty, Junkyard Jim and Lighthands Luke will now bounce into the sleepy vortex of our missing RC, Rick-Van- Winkle Johnson. While all of them are providing the region with a rich drama, the predictably absent response from the Non-RC will likely be only a stepping stone until appeals fly westward towards Satti and Lotus Land. It has crossed my mind that the most common bind between all those concerned is that most of them live in the basements of their mother's houses, with windows covered with tin foil. I must peer into some message areas in the genre of alt.er.boys, I'm sure that we'd find them all there in some immodest capacity. I have also discovered some leads while here. The events in Haiti are no coincidence - all evidence shows that the invasion is a mere coverup for the real coup that the CIA has pulled-- the substitution of Rick-Van-Winkle with none other than Baby Doc Duvalier. I shall discuss this further with my sources posthaste and get some hard evidence. I must go, Logger, I've let Ms. LaBamba out of my sight and I FidoNews 11-41 Page: 4 10 Oct 1994 believe she is downstairs, flogging the French Ambassador with a rather large cauliflower. As your spiritual advisor, might I suggest that you should never trust a woman in leopard skin tights if she's carrying a huge legume. Religiously yours, Rev. Richard Visage Spiritual Advisor, Region 12 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A Warning to N700C Chris Leung (6:700/703 aka 6:700/0) As netmail messages have been sent to current sysops to ask if they are still willing to join Net700 and observe Policy4, the following message is received from one of the veteran Net700 sysops. It is quoted here for other *C's reference. (666) 03 Oct 94 22:02:02 Rcvd: Tue 4 Oct 12:16a By: xxxx xxxx (True name not revealed here) To: Chris Leung Re: Node Number Hello, Chris! As you have proceeded and removed my node numbers from the nodelist (against a lot of advice I may add) I have a couple of questions for you 1. On what grounds do you base this removal on my nodes ? 2. When do you intend to reinstate them ? I have complained about your actions to the new IC and demanded your removal from this post on grounds of gross incompetence..... I have read and reread the Policy4 and I cannot see where it says that you have the authority to do this removal you are only allowed to assign nodes.... If you do not reinstate my nodes I will be taking this further to the courts.... as you are denying me my rights to freedom of information without good reason.... This will cost you a lot of money in the long run defending yourself. You really ought to think this one out again and do it quickly. By the way your actions do not seem to have had the desired effect the old fido net still seems to be functioning very well the old net700 file has all of the old nodes and we are still using them.... whether this allows us to communicate overseas is another matter but you have not managed to do what you set out to do.... FidoNews 11-41 Page: 5 10 Oct 1994 ===End of Message======= x x x xxxxxxxxxxxx xxx (852) xxx-xxxx or xxx-xxxx (Personal information of the writer 16,000+ files 100+ msg areas not revealed here) ====================== (Comments from Chris Leung:- A new application package was sent to current fido sysops in mid-September. All current sysops are asked to complete a form and return it to me by October 14, 1994 to confirm their willingness to join Net700 and observe Policy4. That form serves also to update all nodes' information as the former NC did not hand it over to me. ) Umm... if a NC is put into jail simply because he is implementing the procedures of a Policy which all participants are expected to observe, will the ZC and RC be willing to let him/her continue his/her NC duty... in the jail......? This letter reminds me of all great heroes who sacrificed themselves for the ideal which has long been chased after...... :-I ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jon Sabol From: David Finster To: FidoNet A message entitled 'The Facts of Life' with the author of Thom Henderson recently swept across the net. This message was in fact not penned by Mr. Henderson. It was an attempt by ourselves to imply that the recent illicit activities taking place in the net were caused by Mr. Henderson. This has never been proven. The message in question was in fact written by the two of us. We have no excuse other than our own childish stupidity. This has resulted in our own discredit. We can only offer our sincere apologies to Mr. Wong and Mr. Henderson. In addition, we apologize to the entire network for our infantile behavior. This could only take place given the current level of distrust and deceit in the network. In light of the actions we have taken, and the blow that our credibility has taken, we find it necessary to step down from our respective positions in the network. The positions of "Opus_INFO 'here'", National Echomail Coordinator, and Sysop Echomail Moderator are now vacant. We trust you will make the proper choices for the new appointees for these positions. Sincerely, David Finster Jon Sabol From: Tom Jennings, 1:125/111 To: Butch Walker, 1:161/1, NERD'S NOOK #1 Opus, Concord CA Reply To #56 Subj: personal note FidoNews 11-41 Page: 6 10 Oct 1994 Well, that thing by Finster ... I know he may be a friend of yours, and I wont say Im glad, but I feel somewhat satisfied tat they manged managed to go one step too far. Finster did some terrible attacks on me and others, including Ken Kaplan, as low as racial slurs in some cases. Very bad vibes to say the least. He made things up from whole cloth. I skip this, its old news, old sores. Just a reminder that things like this have happened, info was fabricated, and that people should watch what people DO, not what they MIGHT or COULD do. This isnt "to" you, this is just a passing comment, really! There's to many that would understand it, thats all, since very few people around today saw that stuff. Thats all! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Area Badmail, Msg#1, Oct-01-94 20:47:50 From: Ken Wilson Subject: ZEC election Candidate As you all know from my previous messages in here a couple of weeks ago, and announcements in the Snooooz, there is a ZEC election underway. This is a candidate message (the only one I have seen so far) from one of the ZEC candidates. Here it is for you viewing. Since I must vote later this week, any comments and direction are solicited as always. * Message Forwarded on by Ken Wilson (1:12/12) ---------- Forwarded Message Begins ---------- While serving as the elected REC of Region 19 for the past 2 years, I have come to the conclusion that it's time that some things change regarding the responsibilities of the Z1EC. It is no longer sufficient for the Z1EC to act primarily as the overseer of the Zone 1 Backbone. It's time to expand the role of the Z1EC to concentrate more on global matters and, working with the other ZECs, widen it's scope to recognize the coordination needs of all distribution systems within FidoNet. These are my thoughts regarding what I see as the duties / responsibilities of the next Zone 1 Echo Coordinator: To reinforce the philosophy that the Fidonet EchoMail Coordinator structure exists for the COORDINATION of EchoMail as it moves through FidoNet and not for the CONTROL of that EchoMail movement. To work with the other EchoMail Coordinators to ensure that every node operator in Zone 1 has access to each and every Fidonet EchoMail Conference and to coordinate feeds in such a fashion as to focus on economics and reliability. To work with the Zone Echo Coordinators of each and every other FidoNews 11-41 Page: 7 10 Oct 1994 Zone in the pursuit of streamlined and efficient EchoMail movement around the globe. To work toward creating an EchoPol. This EchoMail Policy must be the one referred to in Policy 4, Section 9.9, which, "..extends and does not contradict general policy.." This EchoMail Policy must apply to all of Fidonet and therefore address itself to only the technical aspects of EchoMail distribution which all Zones have in common. This would be a coordinated effort enlisting the assistance and participation of all ZECs. It must define the duties and responsibilities of each Echo Coordinator position and, once and for all, have those positions ratified and formally recognized within Fidonet. It must be presented to the IC and be placed on the table for a "vote of adoption" by the majority of the Fidonet *Cs. I have already initiated a dialogue with the ZC's and ZEC's of all the Fidonet zones and find them generally receptive as long as we in Zone 1 do not attempt to dictate our customs to them. To redefine the relationship between the Z1EC and what's presently referred to as, "The Zone 1 Fido Backbone". Customarily, the Zone 1 Echo Coordinator has spent the bulk of his time and resources administering what's commonly referred to as "The Zone 1 Fidonet Backbone." It's time to recognize that "Backbone" for what it really is: 3 Fido SysOps doing the best they can to provide but ONE of the many EchoMail distribution systems available to FidoNet. The Z1EC must concern himself with EchoMail coordination throughout all of FidoNet, and as it affects Zone 1, focusing less attention on only 1 distribution system. To discuss the possibility/necessity of creating a position of "International EchoMail Coordinator." With the adoption of a Fido-Wide EchoMail Policy, it *may* be necessary to create a position to coordinate EchoMail movement throughout the world, and to more closely parallel FidoNet general policy. To discuss the possibility of creating an "EchoMail Technical Standards Committee." Due to the ever increasing bulk and complexity of worldwide EchoMail movement, it *may* be beneficial to FidoNet to move the responsibility of maintaining and developing technical standards *as they relate to EchoMail* out from under the umbrella of the FTSC. It *might* serve FidoNet well to create an "ETSC" composed of EchoMail software developers and users. Hopefully, this committee would spawn pro-active development of new tools and the documenting of present and future 'standards'. FidoNews 11-41 Page: 8 10 Oct 1994 If elected, these are the points on which I will focus. Thank you, AllTheBest, Bruce ---------------------------------------------------------------------- New Echo--COUPON by Lawrence Kellie COUPON available now. As I was perusing several echoes the other day, several people mentioned wanting to trade coupons. It occurred to me, that I hadn't seen any echo on the subject of coupons, rebates, or refunds (from hereon referred to just as coupon[s]). Hence COUPON! At this time the traffic is rather light. We have a total of five nodes, counting myself. Topology 1:343/164 (WA) ---------------------- 1:3404/155 (BC) | | |- 1:343/58 (WA) | | | | | - 1:343/182 (WA) | |- 1:2613/482 (NY) | The echo rules are still evolving. One improvement during the first few days is the handling of U.S. vs. Canada coupons. Rules The COUPON Echo Rules and Guidelines This conference is moderated by Lawrence Kellie FidoNet 1:343/164 This conference will be a RELAXED forum for discussion of coupons, refunds, and rebates with the emphasis on locating those much needed coupons/forms/rebates. We will help each other obtain what is needed to be a successful refunder. 1. Avoid excessive quoting. Try to quote enough of the message so that FidoNews 11-41 Page: 9 10 Oct 1994 the person you are responding to understands the reply and can relate it to what was being discussed. 2. Users are requested to please consider both the QUALITY and QUANTITY of what they post, keeping in mind the costs incurred for moving the mail. 3. DON'T be annoying or easily annoyed. If you feel that someone is out of line, please make the Moderator aware of the situation through Netmail, and allow them to follow through. DON'T FLAME. 4. Inclusion of the area for which the coupons/refunds are valid is important. Therefore, information such as "For US, only," "For CDN only," "For ME, NH, VT only" type of information is expected in one's coupon/rebate posting. 5. Have fun! In other words.... Be nice. Play fair. These Guidelines are subject to change at any time. The moderator's word is the final authority. Lawrence Kellie Moderator Connection guidelines I at 1:343/164 and Rusty Stevens at 1:3404/155 are willing to set up anyone who is interested in polling for the echo. Join in this echo. It is one that will gain in popularity and will be a real offering to your users. Lawrence Kellie (aka LaRK) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brandon Carnahan(1:114/271) To: Editors (1:1/23) Subject: Submission Hello, Sometimes reflecting on things said in the past can adjust our outlook on the present and future. This is public material far as I know. RBBS-PC SYSOP's DESIDERATA ========================== Go gently among the messages and comments that have been left and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all your users. Speak your truth quietly and clearly affirming your rights under the FidoNews 11-41 Page: 10 10 Oct 1994 First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. Listen to what your users say -- even the dull and the ignorant, for they too have their way to find. There are no stupid questions -- only stupid answers (the ones that don't answer the question). Avoid loud and aggressive persons who seek to belittle what you have made of RBBS-PC as they are vexations to the spirit and of no consequence as they only have stature by tearing down what others have built. If you compare your RBBS-PC with others, you may become vain and bitter; for there always will be greater and lesser RBBS-PC's than yours. Enjoy what you have achieved as well as what you plan to achieve. Keep interested in your own goals, however humble; they are your only real possession amid the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in running your RBBS-PC; for the world is full of those would seek to crash your system. But let this not blind or embitter you to what virtue there is; the vast majority of your users strive for high ideals; and everywhere the PC community is full of their heroism. Be yourself. Especially, do not feign superiority. Neither be cynical about your users; for in the face of all adversity and disenchantment they are your strength. Take kindly the counsel of others, gracefully surrendering your prejudices and preconceived ideas to discover truth. Nurture strength of spirit to endure the misfortunes of hardware and software failures. Beyond a reasonable expectation of personal excellence be gentle with yourself. You and your RBBS-PC are an expression of all our freedoms, no less than the printed word; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, the future is unfolding as it should because you are here. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever effort your RBBS-PC takes or aspirations you have for it, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. Be proud of those whose company you keep -- all those that are running or have ever run RBBS-PC. Some have stopped running any system; some have gone on to other systems; some have written their own systems. All but a very few have kept the faith with RBBS-PC. They have not allowed RBBS-PC's source code to be stolen and sold; they have protected the licenses and copyrights of others and in so doing they have protected their own; they have fostered the free exchange of information; and they have remembered those who went before them. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, the world of electronic bulletin boards is still beautiful because so many have kept faith with what RBBS-PC is about. Be careful. Strive to be happy and enjoy....... FidoNews 11-41 Page: 11 10 Oct 1994 Tom Mack July 28, 1986 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: The Terminator (1:2805/1) To: Editors (1:1/23) Re: Formal Policy Complaint Enclosed is a copy of a message I recently sent to Adrian Walker, the interim ZEC. Please publish it in this week's edition of FidoSnooze. Brent Hamm Network Echo Coordinator Network 2805 To: Adrian Walker, Zone1 Echo Coord (1:1/200) Re: Formal Policy Complaint cc: Bob Satti (1:153/6), Jerry Seward, Michael Walsh (1:13/0) cc: Mike Hudson, Jeff Cook Dear Mr. Walker: I formally request that Jeff Cook be immediately removed as Moderator of VIRUS_INFO. Mr. Cook is clearly in violation of Policy 4, Section 1.3.6 which I again quote: 1.3.6 Commercial Use FidoNet is an amateur network. Participants spend their own time and money to make it work for the good of all the users. It is not appropriate for a commercial enterprise to take advantage of these volunteer efforts to further their own business interests. On the other hand, FidoNet provides a convenient and effective means for companies and users to exchange information, to the mutual benefit of all. I have concrete proof that Mr. Cook is using VIRUS_INFO to further his own commercial interests. Below is a copy of a netmail message sent to me by Mr. Cook wherein he brags of his moderation activities as being "tax deductible." I am not the only person to whom Mr. Cook has made this boast. If necessary, I'm certain that I can provide many examples from others, however I feel that it is important that you investigate this allegation yourself. (71) Tue 4 Oct 94 21:51 Cost: 15 By: Jeff Cook, Thunderbyte Support USA (1:2628/5@fidonet.org) To: Brent Hamm Re: yawn... St: Pvt Kill -------------------------------------------------------------------- @MSGID: 1:2628/5@fidonet.org 8a95b1df @REPLY: 1:14/609@fidonet 8a8b07e5 FidoNews 11-41 Page: 12 10 Oct 1994 @PID: FM 2.02 Hello little boy, > You needn't worry about removing VIRUS_INFO from the > backbone. I'm going to remove it for you. Yeah, right. Well, I played you idiots like a fiddle. True to my prediction, your lover left a message on my company's answering machine. Ha ha ha!!! Children are so easy to predict. > The Terminator > Moderator, VIRUS_INFO Big deal. I sincerely hope that my life never becomes so boring that pulling your childish bullshit pranks becomes fun. If it does, I hope someone will have the courtesy to push me in front of a truck - as I'd sure hate to wake up thinking "...uh yup, I sure did fix that moderator, uh yup...". Obviously, a moron like you has no life. BTW, doesn't it just torque your shorts knowing that I'm right - AGAIN! Feel free to keep up the correspondence - my responses are tax-deductible. Best regards, Jeff Cook Moderator, Virus_Info VIRUS_INFO is nothing more than a blatantly commercial advertisement for ThunderByte AntiVirus. By his own admission, Jeff Cook considers his responsibilities as Moderator of VIRUS_INFO as nothing more than a tax deduction. ECHOPOL1 is somewhat vague and contradictory, however I shall quote the germane portions with appropriate comments. 7. REMOVAL OF AN ECHOMAIL CONFERENCE MODERATOR: An Echomail Conference Moderator may be removed from their position by a three fourths (3/4) vote of the *EC structure voting. This vote must be carried out in a fair and decent manner while giving at least ten (10) days notice to the entire *EC structure of the upcoming vote. The ZEC shall notify the RECs who in turn shall notify the NECs in their region of any upcoming vote. Notice must be given via NetMail. Additional postings in such conferences as COORD and regional conferences are encourgaged. Apparently, the Zone Echo Coordinator is the only person whom can schedule a recall election of a Moderator. Accordingly, this message is addressed to you and I hereby request that you FidoNews 11-41 Page: 13 10 Oct 1994 immediately schedule a recall election to remove Jeff Cook as Moderator of VIRUS_INFO. 6. DUTIES OF ECHOMAIL CONFERENCE MODERATOR: Echo conference complaints from a Sysop should be filed at the net level (NEC) or if the complaining party is an independent node then with their REC. The NEC or REC receiving such a complaint must take action in accordance with the provisions of this echomail policy. Under this provision of of ECHOPOL1, I am formally filing complaints with Mike Hudson, Network Echo Coordinator of Network 2805, and with Jerry Seward, Region Echo Coordinator of Region 13. Mr. Cook is in direct violation of ECHOPOL1, Part V, Sections 1 and 14, which I will also quote: V. STATEMENT OF POLICIES 1. BASIC ECHOMAIL POLICY: The basic policy of Echomail is to promote communication in Echomail Conferences in a lawful, friendly manner consistent with the general principles of FidoNet. 14. DEFAMATORY POSTING: The posting of any DEFAMATORY MESSAGE other than in conferences dedicated to this purpose (i.e. FLAME) shall lead to disciplinary action as described previously in this document. Mr. Cook's flagrant use of VIRUS_INFO to promote his own business activities is clearly a violation of "the general principles of FidoNet." Secondly, Mr. Cook has used his position as Moderator of VIRUS_INFO as a pulpit from which to attack, insult, and denigrate the authors of competing antivirus products. Bill Lambdin at 1:157/200 and Zvi Netiv at 2:403/250 can verify the veracity of this statement. Mr. Lambdin is the American Support Site for F-Prot Antivirus and Mr. Netiv is the author of Invircible Antivirus. In addition, the tone of Mr. Cook's netmail message to me is indicative of the manner in which he treats users of VIRUS_INFO who happen to disagree with his belief that ThunderByte AntiVirus is the best virus scanner ever made. Furthermore, Mr. Cook has used his position as Moderator of VIRUS_INFO to ridicule and belittle countless FidoNet SysOps who run Virus Exchange Bulletin Board Systems. Finally, the very name of the ECHOTAG, VIRUS_INFO, is incredibly misleading. The only "information" allowed to be posted in VIRUS_INFO is statements praising ThunderByte or condemning its competitors. Opposing viewpoints are immediately silenced, a policy which is hardly consistent with the general principles of FidoNet. Once again, I would urge you to conduct your own investigation of these accusations. I am filing these complaints under the provisions of both Policy 4, Section 9.9 and ECHOPOL1, Part V, which I will also quote: FidoNews 11-41 Page: 14 10 Oct 1994 9.9 Echomail Echomail is an important and powerful force in FidoNet. For the purposes of Policy Disputes, echomail is simply a different flavor of netmail, and is therefore covered by Policy. VI. ENFORCEMENT Enforcement of this policy document shall be under the provisions of General FidoNet policy. Complaints concerning Echomail violations defined under this policy may be filed by the aggrieved individual, the conference moderator or by any level of Echomail Coordinator to the appropriate *C level. All complaints made pursuant to this policy must be made within 60 days of the date of occurrence or discovery. Complaints shall be filed under the provisions of General Fidonet Policy, with a copy to the respective *EC. Under these provisions, I am filing a formal complaint with Michael Walsh, Region Coordinator of Region 13, on the basis of the evidence presented above. I would again ask that you conduct your own investigation of these charges. Sincerely yours, Brent Hamm Network Echo Coordinator Network 2805 Area Netmail, Msg#440, Oct-06-94 23:39:04 From: The Terminator (1:2805/1) To: Editor (1:1/23) Subject: Formal Policy Complaint * Originally by The Terminator, 1:2805/1@fidonet * Originally to Bob Satti, 1:153/6 * Originally dated 6 Oct 1994, 22:30 FLAGS DIR * Original to: Bob Satti (1:153/6) cc: Adrian Walker, Jerry Seward, Mike Hudson Dear Mr. Satti: Below is a copy of a decision rendered by Michael Walsh, Region 13 Coordinator, in one of the complaints I filed. Rather than waste time arguing with an obvious moron like Walsh, I have to decided to appeal his decision directly to you. I believe that you already have copies of all the pertinent information and, unlike Walsh, understand the issues at hand. I will respect whatever decision you make, however I would appreciate it if you would provide me with the reasoning behind your decision. Despite Walsh's obtuseness, Policy 4, Section 9.9, clearly provides for ECHOPOL1 as demonstrated by the following quote: FidoNews 11-41 Page: 15 10 Oct 1994 9.9 Echomail Echomail is an important and powerful force in FidoNet. For the purposes of Policy Disputes, echomail is simply a different flavor of netmail, and is therefore covered by Policy. By its nature, echomail places unique technical and social demands on the net over and above those covered by this version of Policy. In recognition of this, an echomail policy which extends (and does not contradict) general Policy, maintained by the Echomail Coordinators, and ratified by a process similar to that of this document, is recognized by the FidoNet Coordinators as a valid structure for dispute resolution on matters pertaining to echomail. At some future date the echomail policy document may be merged with this one. As I mentioned in my original complaint, ECHOPOL1 is somewhat vague and contradictory. This would be a good opportunity to clarify its meaning and intent. As for Walsh's claim that I have not attempted to resolve this dispute, I would remind you that Jeff Cook called me by voice last night and made threats of bodily harm. He is completely irrational and there is no way for me to resolve this dispute outside of a formal policy complaint. Since this is such an important and complicated issue, I would ask you to take all the time that you need to render a decision and to consult with the *C and *EC structure. I'm sure that the question of Commercial Use will be hotly debated in ZEC and in FidoSnooze for quite some time. It would behoove us all to watch the debate. Respectfully yours, Brent Hamm Network Echo Coordinator Network 2805 By: Michael Walsh, Mid Atlantic (1:13/0) To: Brent Hamm Re: Formal Policy Complaint St: Pvt Crash 88> ----------------------------------------------------------------- @INTL 1:2805/1 1:13/0 cc: Bob Satti 1:153/6, Jerry Seward, Mike Hudson, Jeff Cook cc: Adrian Walker 1/200 Weirdness... he's filing the complaint with me, but addresses his message to Adrian? > Dear Mr. Walker: Nothing personal, Mr. Terminator, but I have a real problem taking you seriously here. Just who the hell is "The Terminator"? FidoNews 11-41 Page: 16 10 Oct 1994 At the end of this very long message, you state that you're filing a complaint with me, yet the message seems to be addressed to the interim-ZEC. According to the nodelist, you are Brent Hamm (if the origin address on the message is correct) and I do not appreciate being forced to look you up. With that said: > I formally request that Jeff Cook be immediately removed > as Moderator of VIRUS_INFO. Mr. Cook is clearly in > violation of Policy 4, Section 1.3.6 which I again quote: On what basis would you suggest a moderator be removed? I see you quote from a document called ECHOPOL1 later on in this message, but I can't observe it's conditions as a part of a complaint because this is an unratified document -- at this point in time, it is nothing more than words. I can only address FidoNet Policy 4.07, dated 6/9/89. > 1.3.6 Commercial Use [text deleted; we all have a copy] > I have concrete proof that Mr. Cook is using VIRUS_INFO > to further his own commercial interests. Below is a > copy of a netmail message sent to me by Mr. Cook wherein > he brags of his moderation activities as being "tax > deductible." I am not the only person to whom Mr. Cook > has made this boast. If necessary, I'm certain that I > can provide many examples from others, however I feel > that it is important that you investigate this > allegation yourself. [message deleted; we all have the original message] > VIRUS_INFO is nothing more than a blatantly commercial > advertisement for ThunderByte AntiVirus. By his own > admission, Jeff Cook considers his responsibilities as > Moderator of VIRUS_INFO as nothing more than a tax > deduction. Interesting, but hardly proof of "commercial use." The second paragraph of section 1.3.6 outlines what "commercial use" is; in my opinion, someone claiming that they make "tax deductions" on the expenses incurred in moving netmail isn't germane. What would be is if he used netmail to take and deliver orders for product, and that netmail was moved at others' expense; that would be one example. Another would be mail to an employee about company-internal business, or what I call "propaganda" -- literature designed to further his business interests which serves no purpose to the members of FidoNet. FidoNews 11-41 Page: 17 10 Oct 1994 If he makes information available to members which they find useful, then he is not meeting any definition of "commercial use" that I can see. > Apparently, the Zone Echo Coordinator is the only person > whom can schedule a recall election of a Moderator. > Accordingly, this message is addressed to you and I > hereby request that you immediately schedule a recall > election to remove Jeff Cook as Moderator of VIRUS_INFO. Adrian cannot do so, at least as far as I can tell, based on Policy. > Under this provision of of ECHOPOL1, I am formally > filing complaints with Mike Hudson, Network Echo > Coordinator of Network 2805, and with Jerry Seward, > Region Echo Coordinator of Region 13. Neither can these gentlemen act. > Mr. Cook's flagrant use of VIRUS_INFO to promote his own > business activities is clearly a violation of "the > general principles of FidoNet." What are the "general principles of FidoNet" that you refer to? > Under these provisions, I am filing a formal complaint > with Michael Walsh, Region Coordinator of Region 13, on > the basis of the evidence presented above. I would again > ask that you conduct your own investigation of these > charges. Here's the rub: now you address this to me. Ugh. Okay, let's have at it. 1) As mentioned above, I see no proof of commercial use. 2) I see a failure to provide substantiating evidence of an attempt to resolve as detailed in section 9.1 of Policy 4.07. The complaint is therefore dismissed. ---Michael Walsh R13C FidoNews 11-41 Page: 18 10 Oct 1994 From: The Terminator (1:2805/1) To: Editor (1:1/23) Subject: Formal Policy Complaint * Originally by The Terminator, 1:2805/1@fidonet * Originally to Adrian Walker, 1:153/752 * Originally dated 6 Oct 1994, 23:20 FLAGS DIR * Original to: Adrian Walker (1:153/752) cc: Jerry Seward, Mike Hudson, Bob Satti (1:153/6) Gentlemen: Since I am sure you have all received copies of Walsh's decision, I will not bother quoting it here. I am writing to remind you gentlemen that the complaints I have filed with you were based upon ECHOPOL1 and not upon Policy 4. In particular, the request for a recall election of Jeff Cook as Moderator of VIRUS_INFO was filed with Mr. Walker under the provisions of Part IV, Section 7 which I quote: IV. APPOINTMENT AND ELECTION OF ECHOMAIL COORDINATORS AND MODERATORS 7. REMOVAL OF AN ECHOMAIL CONFERENCE MODERATOR: An Echomail Conference Moderator may be removed from their position by a three fourths (3/4) vote of the *EC structure voting. This vote must be carried out in a fair and decent manner while giving at least ten (10) days notice to the entire *EC structure of the upcoming vote. The ZEC shall notify the RECs who in turn shall notify the NECs in their region of any upcoming vote. Notice must be given via NetMail. Additional postings in such conferences as COORD and regional conferences are encourgaged. The complaint I filed with Mr. Hudson is filed under the provisions of ECHOPOL1, Part III, Section 6, which I also quote: III. DUTIES OF ECHOMAIL COORDINATORS 6. DUTIES OF ECHOMAIL CONFERENCE MODERATOR: Echo conference complaints from a Sysop should be filed at the net level (NEC) or if the complaining party is an independent node then with their REC. The NEC or REC receiving such a complaint must take action in accordance with the provisions of this echomail policy. Walsh's apparent lack of comprehension of echomail policy notwithstanding, Mr. Walker and Mr. Hudson are required by ECHOPOL1 to render decisions. I am sending a copy of this message to Mr. Seward in the event it becomes necessary to appeal Mr. Hudson's decision. Walsh's decision in my complaint FidoNews 11-41 Page: 19 10 Oct 1994 against Jeff Cook filed under the provisions of Policy 4 is completely irrelevant to the complaints I have filed with you under the provisions of ECHOPOL1. As I stated in my appeal of Walsh's decision to Bob Satti, this is an important and complex issue and I would ask you to take all the time you need to render your decisions. I would also ask you to investigate the charges I have made rather than summarily dismissing them merely because I choose to use an alias and to associate myself with people whom Walsh despises. In short, I am asking you to base your decisions upon the merits of my arguments and not upon my radiant personality:) Brent Hamm Network Echo Coordinator Network 2805 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ======================================================================== Fidonews Information ======================================================================== ------- FIDONEWS MASTHEAD AND CONTACT INFORMATION ---------------- Editors: Sylvia Maxwell, Donald Tees Editors Emeritii: Thom Henderson, Dale Lovell, Vince Perriello, Tim Pozar Tom Jennings "FidoNews" BBS FidoNet 1:1/23 BBS +1-519-570-4176, 300/1200/2400/14400/V.32bis/HST(DS) more addresses: Rev. 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