F I D O N E W S -- Vol.10 No.34 (23-Aug-1993) +----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | A newsletter of the | | | FidoNet BBS community | Published by: | | _ | | | / \ | "FidoNews" BBS | | /|oo \ | +1-519-570-4176 1:1/23 | | (_| /_) | | | _`@/_ \ _ | Editors: | | | | \ \\ | Sylvia Maxwell 1:221/194 | | | (*) | \ )) | Donald Tees 1:221/192 | | |__U__| / \// | Tim Pozar 1:125/555 | | _//|| _\ / | | | (_/(_|(____/ | | | (jm) | Newspapers should have no friends. | | | -- JOSEPH PULITZER | +----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | Submission address: editors 1:1/23 | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Internet addresses: | | | | Sylvia -- max@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca | | Donald -- donald@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca | | Tim -- pozar@kumr.lns.com | | Both Don & Sylvia (submission address) | | editor@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | For information, copyrights, article submissions, | | obtaining copies and other boring but important details, | | please refer to the end of this file. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ ======================================================================== Table of Contents ======================================================================== 1. Editorial..................................................... 2 2. Articles...................................................... 2 H-Net adds H-Land........................................... 2 GUUCP Addresses............................................. 4 Zone 1/Region 18: Coordinated or Controlled................. 4 Fidonet/BBS meeting in Estonia.............................. 9 Non-BackBone (NoBone) Echomail Distribution Proposal........ 11 RegionCon '93 in Region 17.................................. 12 THE VENDINFO COMMERCIAL PLAN................................ 13 Introducing RockNet!........................................ 19 The ANSi Phallicy........................................... 19 Compression again........................................... 20 Take it to Iran, boys....................................... 22 TIMES HAVEN'T CHANGED MUCH.................................. 23 The rest of the story (re "WHOLLY_BIBLE")................... 25 3. Fidonews Information.......................................... 27 FidoNews 10-34 Page: 2 23 Aug 1993 ======================================================================== Editorial ======================================================================== The de-facto standard of Fidonews has always been "we print what we get". Sometimes, the articles sent in make that difficult. The current spate of articles by Mr. Decker, Mr. Winter, et al are a perfect example. If it were the first time, maybe it would be more palatable. However, it is not. As regularly as clockwork, Mr. Winter writes an article making wild accusations against the world. As regular as clockwork, Mr. Decker jumps into the fray sending in vast missives protecting the free world from religious bigotry. The two escalate their war while new-comers jump in from both sides. It is so predicatable and boring that this editor is tempted to just push the articles into the bit bucket as they arrive. I have taken the liberty of placing the articles at the end of the issue, where they are easier to ignore. There has also been concern expressed about commercial ventures using fidonews as "free" advertising. Just to clarify matters somewhat, the snooze will turn down articles that we see as blatant ads. However, blatant is the operative word. A well written, informative article that pertains to sysops might be included. It is dependant upon how usefull we perceive it to be. I would add to that, however, that we also expect knowlegable users to comment on such articles. In other words, an article makes you fair game. ======================================================================== Articles ======================================================================== H-Net adds H-Land By Jason Garneau 1:325/304 H-Net adds H-Land! / / /\ / -------------- / / / \ / / / /-----/ -=- / \ / /---- / / / / \ / / / / / / \/ -------- / -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=(H-Net / H-Land Echomail Network)=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- H-Net (Handle-Net) has just added an entire new series of echos known as H-Land! H-Land is our attempt to make a simulated world to communicate with other users on a more natural level. Wheter you want to grab a burger at Mac Ronald's, go to the party room, or take a stroll down Main Street, you can always feel at home with H-Land. H-Land suggests handles, as it is a part of H-Net, but if your board does not support handles, you are still welcome to join in on the fun! FidoNews 10-34 Page: 3 23 Aug 1993 So, if you're interested in escaping into the online world of H-Land, FREQ HNETMEMB.ZIP which includes the latest policy, nodelist, echolist, and application form (which is attached to the end of this article) from Online World BBS, Fidonet 1:325/304. -------------------------------------- | H-Net Application Form 2.0 | | | |------------------------------------- | SysOp First Name __________________| | SysOp Last Name __________________| | Mother's Maiden name ______________| | BBS Name (To be listed in nodelist)| | ___________________________________| | BBS Phone Number (___)___-____ | | City __________________| | State (Province) __________________| | Country __________________| | Fidonet Address (if one) | | _:____/____ | | Modem Protocols (X 'em): | | ( ) HST ( ) V32 ( ) V32Bis | | ( ) V42 ( ) V42Bis ( ) PEP | | ( ) CSP ( ) MNP ( ) Pvt | | ( ) CM ( ) XA ( ) XX | | ( ) ZYX ( ) 2400-Only | | ( ) Other: ________________________| | | -------------------------------------- Please poll for mail in 48 hours, and you will receive your new node number, and the latest nodelist with your BBS included. Note to all BBS users: If you are interested in H-Net / H-Land, please ask your sysop if he would be willing to carry H-Net. So, I hope to see you in the H-Net nodelist soon! FidoNews 10-34 Page: 4 23 Aug 1993 GUUCP Addresses By: Matt Riedel, 1:2606/408 This is a follow-up article on my article a few weeks back about InterNet-FidoNet.. The article (I forget what FidoNews it was in) told how to address an email message from FidoNet to the Internet. I gave only one address to do this through.. 1:1/31. I went through the nodelist and found all the GUUCP sites.. At these sites, you will be able to (more likely than not) gate at least email through to the InterNet. So, here is the list of all the nodes marked with a GUUCP flag (as of NODELIST.225): Zone 1: 102/850 103/110 103/200 103/234 125/1 125/5109 143/8 202/217 202/723 213/113 110/300 139/610 226/20 233/13 2200/2112 2320/110 167/281 248/114 (This node is on Hold) 250/98 107/930 109/401 270/311 2604/88 (Down) 2606/533 280/338 282/31 282/341 15/9 (Region) 104/418 104/422 114/9 300/23 300/14 16/390 (Region, New England) 141/420 321/218 324/121 324/132 325/2 333/401 105/6 105/7 105/14 105/42 343/94 (Down) 346/10 357/1 133/411 363/42 369/11 373/12 374/60 (Pvt) 3603/230 3624/6 106/88 124/2206 130/63 147/3660 170/106 382/39 391/1060 Zone 2: 285/406 317/6 (Pvt) 320/100 Zone 3: 632/400 712/400 (Pvt) Zone 4: 850/0 Zone 5: 7104/2 Zone 6: Sorry, none. It may be of good gesture to email ahead to see if it is alright to gate email through them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Zone 1/Region 18: Coordinated or Controlled A Sysop's point of view by Nolan Shapiro (1:3620/14) (116:109/10) (18:715/361) (150:401/0) (44:3502/0) Let me establish some bona fides, if I may: I have been a part of the electronic communications community for many, many years. My first system was a Tandy 1000, no HD, and a 300baud modem. When I first linked in to FidoNet it was as a Point. Shortly thereafter I obtained my own node number and operated as a mail only system. I now run a full-time BBS; moderate echoes on two FidoNews 10-34 Page: 5 23 Aug 1993 separate networks; am NC/NEC of Net401 (PoliceNet) and of Net3502 (SAF-NET) with Hubs/downlinks in four states. I offer all of the above for the sole purpose of establishing that what I have written, here, was not based upon uninformed opinion nor rash judgements for which I have no experiential basis. The object of this exercise, my friends, is to rebut the self-serving article, written by Chris Baker (RC18), which appeared in the FidoNews of August 2, 1993.I have a copy of that article, printed out, before me as I write this. I also have more than 300 messages in the Region 18 Sysop echo, on my system, to some of which I will, from time to time, refer. Before I address these, and other points of interest to those of us in Zone 1/Region 18, I must tell you that I have never met Chris Baker, RC18, nor have I spoken with him. What I know of him is garnered from his messages in the Region 18 Sysop echo. It was upon that `knowledge' that I voted for him, it is also the basis of my opposition to his continuing in that office. There is nothing personal in this since, as I said, I have no personal knowledge of Chris Baker. Okay, with the scene all set --- here we go! - What if I were to tell you that a certain body of rules was "a load of crap" and, subsequently, judged you by those very same rules? The words in quotes were used by Chris Baker, in an EchoMail message, in reference to Policy4. Yet it is that very same Policy4 which he falls back on when it suits his purpose. - What if I determined that you had violated those rules and applied sanctions against you? Again, despite his belief that Policy4 is `crap' Baker uses/abuses it when making rulings from his RC seat. - What if I told you that if you don't agree with my ruling then you have a "comprehension problem" and that my interpretation of those rules is infallible? In more than one response to disagreements with him, Baker has posted EchoMail replies using the words I have quoted. He did not, in those same messages, even attempt to address the disagreement nor did he clarify his previous statement so that the recipient of the message might be better informed. - What if I violate those self-same rules, where it was seen by many others, and then denied any violation due to the manner in which I have interpreted them? More than once, as evidenced by action taken by Baker, this has been the case. Rather than just take my word for it, allow me to suggest that those FidoNews 10-34 Page: 6 23 Aug 1993 of you in Zone1/Region18 access the Region 18 Sysop echo. You will find such incongruities as Baker insisting, for example, that he did not send a particular message with the `file attach' bit set _despite_ the fact that the recipient of that message posted the pertinent portion of his log showing that, indeed, the bit _was_ set! Indulge me, if you will, and allow me to offer another illustration: Baker has posted, in R18Sysop, that MAKENL is the `official' nodediff software of FidoNet. When challenged to show where this is documented he falls back, as he usually does, by ignoring the question and impugning the writer's comprehension and/or understanding of FidoNet. As a consequence of this `ruling' Baker has effectively, and improperly, disenfranchised every Region 18 NC who does not run an IBM compatible system. Yet another illustration: Baker E-Listed the R18Sysop echo, complete with a set of rules but without a named moderator. When questioned about this, by me, he said that we, the Sysops, were a collective Moderator and that it was our job to regulate the echo. Even were this so, it still remains unanswered why he took it upon himself to E-List the echo and to write the rules for it without any input from those of us who, he now says, will be governed by the same. Yet another illustration: Despite the fact that he has stated that the *EC structure is outside of his province of governance, Baker recently returned a nodediff to a NC because of a "fake" UNEC flag flown by one of the nodes. How, one wonders, did Baker make the determination that the flag was fake and by what authority did he return the nodediff? I will quote Baker's message to the NC, which was posted in the R18Sysop echo by the recipient. My comments are indicated thus; * comment *: By: Christopher Baker To: Charles Hiehle Re: This is your last warning St: Pvt Rcvd --------------------------------- CC: Rick Haburne, Todd Sickmiller, Bob Satti It is not your job to act like an irresponsible twit in FidoNet. * Is _this_ the proper manner for a RC to address a NC? * It is your job to carry out your NC duties in a competent manner and without being annoying, excessively annoying, or just plain stupid. * Again, is it proper for the RC to address a NC in this manner? * You will submit a normal Net segment without the frivolous nonsense FidoNews 10-34 Page: 7 23 Aug 1993 and without the fake UNEC notation on Haburne's Node or your Net will be dissolved as a trivial Net without a single competent Sysop available to act as Net Coordinator. * How did Baker make the determination that the UNEC flag was fake? * Is the overt threat to dissolve an entire net indicative of Baker's * attempt to `coordinate' or is it an exercise in `control?' * If you fail to take this warning to heart, each member of Net 3655 will be removed from the Nodelist when Net 3655 is dissolved and they will then have to find a Net to take them in through the normal application process. * Again, is this threat a proper manner in which to coordinate or, * rather, is it an attempt to control? * Each of you has demonstrated a complete disregard for FidoNet protocols, procedures, and cooperation. * It is interesting to note that Baker installed _this_ NC after * `firing' the previous NC. It is also interesting to note that the * sysop flying the UNEC flag _is_ the previous NC. * The only thing keeping Net 3655 in the Nodelist at this time is the chance that one or more of you will come to your senses and make a conscious decision to stop behaving like spoiled children who've had a toy they were not ready for taken away. * Once again, my friends, is _this_ the proper manner for a RC to * address a NC? * Please consider your next action very carefully. It is up to you. You can decide to act like responsible members of FidoNet or you can go back to the Nets from whence you came. * Please take very careful note of the last sentence. * The choice is yours. Submit a real Net segment without the extensions and false flags or have your Net dissolved in the next Nodelist. * What right does Baker have to claim that a net's segment, as * submitted by the NC, is not "real" and that "false flags" are * shown? * Herein is quoted the unacceptable segment you just sent in under cover of your foolish password of FYCBFYCB: * Use your imagination and you will be able to `read' the password. * Is _that_ the reason, perhaps, why the net's seg was sent back? * What right does Baker have to label as "foolish" whatever password * anyone wishes to use? * ;A Host Nodelist for Friday, August 6, 1993 -- Day number 218 : 06256 Host,3655,CrossNet,Crossville_TN,Charles_Hiehle,1-615-456-4197, ,20,bYTES_&_pC'S_rBBS,cROSSVILLE_tn,rICK_hABURNE,1-615-456-4096,UNEC FidoNews 10-34 Page: 8 23 Aug 1993 * I have deleted _only_ the modem speed and software flags. Can any * of you tell me what is `wrong' with these lines? I cannot find any * fault with the format. * What happens next depends on your performance. * As determined by whom? Based upon what? Why, based upon Baker's * sole determination, of course! * TTFN. Chris RC18 Thus endeth the castigation and threats. Let's take a look at another issue raised by Baker's actions. The following was posted in the E-List: Tagname: HOST18 Area Key: HOST18 Title: Region 18 Coordinator Business Echo Description: Provides a Coordinator-only forum for discussion of Region 18 Coordinator business. It is the primary communication channel between the RC and the NCs for routine traffic. Netmail will still be used for official Region traffic requiring action. HOST18 Echo is Moderated by the current Region 18 Coordinator. This Echo is open to active, Nodelisted Region 18 Co- ordinators ONLY. No one other than current NCs [and NECs for information] may obtain or have access to this restricted Echo. Moderators: Christopher Baker, 1:374/14@fidonet.org Date added: 4-Aug-93 Last changed: 4-Aug-93 Changed by: Christopher Baker, 1:374/14. The following is from Region 18 Policy, a ratified document, which Baker stated, while running for election to RC, he would support: 14. Dedicated Regional Echo Conferences Numerous regional echomail conferences are available for distribution throughout Region 18. The following conferences are of particular note for their role in the distribution of information of regional importance to the members of Region 18: HOST18 - This is a discussion area available to all local Net Coordinators and Net Echo Coordinators for the discussion of administrative issues. Since this is frequently used for dispersing information from the Regional Coordinator to all net administrations and for gaining consensus on issues that may affect regional operations, all local Net Coordinators are encouraged to participate in this FidoNews 10-34 Page: 9 23 Aug 1993 echo. Although the minimum information required to conduct any region-wide voting will be distributed via netmail, this echo is considered the official forum for discussion of regional business. You will note that whereas Baker's E-List entry restricts NECs to "information" access, the Region 18 Policy gives them full access. Is _this_ RC abiding by his Region's ratified policy? Did he misrepresent himself, during the election campaign, when he clearly stated that he would support a Region 18 Policy? The answers to both of these questions are obvious! The bottom line, my friends, is this: Chris Baker (RC18), who may be a very fine person, has clearly demonstrated his contempt for Policy 4; has clearly demonstrated his contempt for Region 18 Policy, as ratified by the region's sysops; has clearly demonstrated his contempt for sysops, in general, and a NC in particular. All of which, in the minds of many Region 18 sysops, makes Chris Baker unfit to continue as, or be re-elected to the RC18 position. Thank you for your attention and, please, obtain a link to the Region 18 Sysop echo so that you can see for yourself that all of what I have written is true. Nolan Shapiro Sysop, Region 18 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fidonet/BBS meeting in Estonia Fidonet/BBS meeting in Estonia. Report by Ron Dwight 2:220/22 Last year I attended a SysOp meeting in Tallin, the capital of Estonia. The meet was fun and this year's meet was no exception. A small group of us from Finland visited the meet this year and I'll describe some of the events in approximate chronological order: Friday at 14:00 we arrived in Tallin on the boat from Helsinki. The trip took about 4 hours, costed around $75 return and was a good opportunity for relaxation. The food on the boat is second to none and all alcohol is served at duty free prices, a welcome relief from the exhorbitant prices generally levied in Finland. We were met at the harbour by a small gropup of SysOps in a minibus which, with a short detour to pick up computer FidoNews 10-34 Page: 10 23 Aug 1993 equipment, battery backup units and a case of beer for the trip, headed south to the camp. The meeting itself, called BBSummer, was held near the town of Polva (the "o" has umlauts), about 240Kms to the south east of Tallin and near to Tartu. Friday at 18:00 or thereabouts, we arrived at the camp, which is on the shore of a small lake. The main building is huge with some 10 bedrooms, self-service kitchen and the usual facilities. GIF pictures of this building and a number of the "crew" are available from 2:220/22 using the magic name BBSUMMER (about 700Kb). Outside, about 100 metres away is a massive sauna and other camping ground facilities. The timetable for the meet was published and went as follows:- (My Estonian is pretty rough so please don't jump if I'm wrong) Friday 1800 CONNECT 2000 Registration 2200 Sponsor announcements 2300 Sauna Saturday 0900 Hangover removal, swimming etc. 1000 Demo, 8 bit vs 16 bit sound cards 1200 Games and competitions 1400 FrontDoor APX & Co 1500 Discussions from the sponsors 1600 Presentation from BBSidest 1800 More competitions, disc throwing etc. 2000 Discussion on the Internet and it's relationship to Fidonet 2200 Demo of new software 2300 Sauna Sunday 0900 The timeTable mentions something about INTENSIVE something, I slept through it, as doing anything involving INTENSITY on a sunday morning is definitely not on. 1000 Computer competitions 1200 Competition finals 1400 Prize giving and closing speeches 1600 NO CARRIER The sponsors of the event were MicroLink, HNS, Baltic Computer Systems, Marvin Expert, Skriining, and Handikap. Although the time-table was not strictly followed, there was almost always something going on. Music was provided by an ultra high power stereo which blasted Techno-Rock at multi- hundred watts until at least 04:00 each morning, making sleep (at least for the sober) almost impossible. Still it was not intended to be a sleeping meet anyway. Other pertinent details of the camp were: Attendees: Over 125 fee paying SysOps, most of them having node numbers in FidoNet. Yes folks, almost the whole of Fidonet FidoNews 10-34 Page: 11 23 Aug 1993 Region 49 was there. Food: Breads, sausages, cheese and potato salad in unlimited quantities. Local restaurants about 10 mins away by car for the picky. Drink: Unlimited quantities of the local brew in huge kegs. It was not wonderfully alcoholic, but it did put a few SysOps to sleep. Cost: For the the 46 hours of the camp, including rooms, food, beer and sauna .. USD 3.40 per person, yes you read it right, three dollars and forty cents per person. Didn't someone complain recently about LuxCon being too "cheap"? You shoulda been here friend! I would like to express my appreciation to ALL the attendes for a great time at the camp with special thanks to Madis Kaal (RC/49) and Tarmo Mamers, not forgetting Sulo, Andrus and the minibus driver. See you all next year folks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Non-BackBone (NoBone) Echomail Distribution Proposal by Grinning Coyote, 1:133/99 Non-BackBone (NoBone) Echomail Distribution Proposal I've thought about this for several years, and see that getting an echo onto the present BackBone is a difficult enough procedure that there needs to be a secondary method. I would like to propose the NoBone. The NoBone would offer Moderators a medium to get the proposed nodes required to get their echos onto the BackBone. Requirements for the NoBone are simple: (1) NoBone echos cannot be on the BackBone (echos which later become backbone are discussed below). (2) Moderators of NoBone echos must deliver the echo to the NoBone for distribution. That's it. The NoBone Distribution Site closest to the Moderator would keep track of how many, and which nodes were carrying each echo, and as those numbers reached the requirement to request the RECs to make the BackBone Request, a detailed message would be sent to the Moderator, to request said echo to become BackBone. Echo Restrictions would be adhered to completely, so the moderators would still have full control of their own echos, even to the point of NoBone Distributors passing through echos that they do not qualify for, and not carrying these echos on their board proper. Any request for removal of an echo from FidoNews 10-34 Page: 12 23 Aug 1993 the NoBone would be acted on immediately, and the moderator would be notified as to which nodes would be affected so that the moderator can choose which nodes to re-distribute his/her own echo to. Once an echo reached BackBone status, the echo in question would be dropped from the NoBone in an orderly manner to remove the risk of dupe loops and to lower costs to both 'Bones. The NoBone would be a distribution medium that would allow echos to become popular enough for the BackBone that would otherwise go unnoticed due to an inability to find the echo. It would also provide a low-cost distribution for these echos for those who would like them. Questions and suggestions for refinement of the NoBone are welcome. I would like to solicit for NoBone Distribution Sites from all Regions and Zones. All Netmail on the subject should be sent to Grinning Coyote, 1:133/99. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RegionCon '93 in Region 17 by Tom Hall, 1:342/1 RegionCon '93 in Kelowna, British Columbia After two years without one, on August 5 and 6, Region 17 finally held its annual RegionCon in Kelowna, the heart of British Columbia's beautiful Okanagan Valley. It was a wonderful experience finally getting to meet Bob Satti, Dallas Hinton, Adrian Walker, Ed Kwasniewski (who basically put this whole affair together), and a number of the Net 353 folk (Doug Evans, Phil Snidal, Mauro Incrocci, Scott Montle). I've also had the pleasure of meeting John English, Sue Cox, Lisa Gronke, Steve Larsen, Denis Tonn, Ken Kavanagh, Brian Hampson, and Lloyd Miller -- in no particular order).... It was also great seeing Ken Ganshirt again, whom I met at the RegionCon Net 342 hosted in Edmonton in 1989. Brian McCullough from my own net was there, as were Norbert Lange and Bob Ross from Calgary. Bob Satti insists that the only reason he got up early enough to make the 9am session on Thursday was that I ordered him to do so at the pub the night before. I adamantly refuse to acknowledge this on the grounds of diminished capacity, as I was amongst the few stragglers still clinging to our chairs when the establishment tactfully informed us that they would like to close for the evening. The weather cooperated -- perhaps TOO well.... It was hotter than the hinges of Hades for the entire week. The sun returned with a vengeance the day before I arrived here (last Sunday), and the temperatures have ranged into the low 30's (upper 80's for you folk south of the 49th) every day this week. The gathering was notable in a number of respects. It was, as far as FidoNews 10-34 Page: 13 23 Aug 1993 anyone could determine, the first regional convention in the history of Fidonet at which the ZC, RC and REC were all present. In addition, there were people such as Ken Ganshirt and Lloyd Miller who have been around Fidonet since God was a baby , and one sysop in particular, Jean Bygrave, the region's newest sysop with the issue of the nodediff which came out that Friday Besides being a close personal friend for the past 25 years, Jean also represented what became a focal concern of the first day's discussion -- the sometimes overawing effect of Fidonet upon new sysops just joining the network. Those of us who've been around a long time tend to forget just how complicated things look from the perspective of the newcomer, and one of the first things to come out of the first day's discussions was the recognition of a real need to establish a mechanism of welcoming new people into the net (at the local as well as the regional level), and pointing these new people to the right place for getting the answers to their questions. The hallmark of this RegionCon was informality, and the provision of ample alternatives to "talking shop". The awesome beauty of the Okanagan Valley impressed everyone. Ed Kwasniewski organized a picnic at one of the area's many beautiful lakeshore parks, and on Friday afternoon led us all on a merry chase about the countryside, starting with an excellent luncheon at Turtle Creek Marine Pub, followed by a tour of a couple of the several excellent wineries this area is noted for. At the Friday morning session, Adrian Walker led the group in a discussion of GMD, and several others provided some background information on why such utilities may become necessary in the near future. This discussion ranged far and wide, including the desirability of secure inbound mail areas. Adrian also impressed the group by drawing freehand on a blackboard an outline map of North America to illustrate how our region connects to the backbone for its echomail. This was only my second regioncon (the first being the one our net hosted in 1989), but once again, for me, the pleasure of putting faces to the names I've corresponded with over the years and making new friends eclipses all other considerations. Meeting this year's participants has once again reminded me of what I firmly believe Fidonet is really all about -- people. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- THE VENDINFO COMMERCIAL PLAN By a BBS Sysop Zone 1 Recently an update on one man's project named VENDINFO, appeared in Fidonews. A project many Fido sysops are not aware of, but should be. Described by it's promoter as follows. FidoNews 10-34 Page: 14 23 Aug 1993 "VENDINFO is a system for conveying software product information and distribution permissions from the author to distributors. A standard (public) file format will carry extensive information in a compressed, efficient form. The associated toolset will aid the author in constructing the record, and will allow the distributor to extract portions of the record, or make distribution decisions based on its content, in a highly auto- mated way. VENDINFO will allow automation of many operations now performed manually by BBS Sysops, disk vendors, etc." From the author's concept documents, we read some of what VENDINFO is projected to answer. ------(begin excerpt)---------------------------------------------- o I am a BBS Sysop charging users a monthly fee of $5.00 US, with no additional charges for downloads. I wish to dis- tribute PACKAGE.ZIP. Does its author allow this distribution? o I am the manager of a FidoNet-based file distribution network to which PACKAGE.ZIP has been submitted. I am considering publishing a CD-ROM of such files, intended for use only by Sysops in this network. May I place this package on the CD- ROM? o I am a mail-order disk vendor and an ASP Vendor Member, charging $6 per 360K diskette. May I distribute PACKAGE.ZIP? Do I need explicit permission, or are the necessary permis- sions already given in the author's distribution restric- tions? o I am a mail-order disk vendor and I already have the author's written permission to distribute this product by mail-order catalog. I am now negotiating deals for retail-store rack distribution and for a CD-ROM aimed at end users. May I include PACKAGE.ZIP in either or both of these ventures? o I am constructing a CD-ROM intended for sale to BBS Sysops. I want to be sure not only that I have permission to include this package, but also that the author allows unlimited distribution to users by BBSes, so that there will be no license violations when the CD-ROM is used. Are all the necessary conditions satisfied?" --(end excerpt)------------------------------------------------ Again, from the author's CONCEPT.DOC we find his goals. 1) "The primary goal of this effort is to automate the handling of information about distribution restrictions applicable to various software packages." 2) "The accomplishment of the primary goal implies the existence of a formal data structure within each participating product package, containing information about the product's distribution permissions and restrictions. FidoNews 10-34 Page: 15 23 Aug 1993 (We'll call this structure VENDINFO.DIZ,.." 3) "Goal three," ... "is to provide automated tools that make use of the system easy for all classes of user." 4) "Goal four is tentative, but valuable"..."allow a subset of the VENDINFO information to be appended to executable programs, and used by the VENDINFO program or even by the executable program itself, to make decisions about the distributability of the program." 5) "Goal five"..."to provide, to all affected user classes, substantial access to both the design process and the resulting system, while maintaining a single point of management so its evolution can be controlled and any security features can be maintained."..."and the form of distribution of the result (primarily a mix of freeware and low-cost shareware)." 6) "Goal six"...."the possibility of developing a centralized registry service, allowing authors to provide just the VENDINFO.DIZ files for their products, and allowing vendors to obtain and scan the resulting data collection for the purpose of updating their product offerrings." 7) "Goal seven"..."if this system is to be successful in the long term, it is necessary that the developers/maintainers of the system have the appropriate incentives to continue their own effort"..."Accordingly, we intend that the software tools have appropriate, relatively small registration fees, in order to motivate a serious, sustained, long-term approach." Supposedly and apparently, according to the promoter, the shareware industry, vendors and BBS industry have excitedly endorsed the VENDINFO plan. A list of BBS producers is given that will support the project in thier code is give. Fido compatible BBS systems are conspicuously missing. To be noted is that the support that is shaping up, is for the most part, commercial support, where a buck can be had. Let us, for the fun of it, turn the authors goals inside out. Lets number them backwards. 1) "we intend that the software tools have appropriate, relatively small registration fees..." For anyone to use the system, they must pay the author. Four different software products (tools) are conceived. 2) "developing a centralized registry service..." Author's must also 'register' each of thier products FidoNews 10-34 Page: 16 23 Aug 1993 they use the system on. Others can obtain or verify this official central registration.. through the central service. No fees are mentioned but I can not imagine one or two people doing what would amount to a full time job.. for free. 3) "maintaining a single point of management..." and "security features..." No one else can maintain or offer use of the system. Security and management would no doubt be with the central registry. This make highly doubtful the central registry would be free to all comers. 4) "a subset of the... information to be appended to executable programs..." (also mentions commercial retail executable.) The system will also be available to be sold to commercial retail companies who don't want thier programs circulated a PD or shareware on BBS's. 5) "provide automated tools that make use of the system easy for all classes of user." Everyone along the chain will have the opportunity to purchase a tool to use the system. 6) "the existence of a formal data structure within each participating product package, containing information about the product's distribution permissions..." The feeling that in this system lies the key to who and what you can legally do with the software. 7) "automate the handling of information about distribution restrictions applicable to various software packages." If you don't use this system, you are forced to manually read the authors license. The author see's this system of reading an authors shareware information as replacing most presently used systems and being the sole source of program information, making any other future systems, unnecessary. "It is expected that the VENDINFO.DIZ record will replace the VENDOR.DOC, SYSOP.DOC, LICENSE.DOC, WARRANTY.DOC, SITELICE.DOC, FILE_ID.DIZ, and DESC.SDI commonly found in shareware and public-domain software packages. It may eventually replace READ-ME.DOC and similar files, as well." Despite the fact that the author describes this as a work of love.. he gives further reason the system should come into use in his own "Ramsey's Law", which highlight's his own possible motive of FidoNews 10-34 Page: 17 23 Aug 1993 profits. "Every necessary participant in a system must have predominantly positive incentives for its use, or the system will fail." SO EXACTLY WHAT DO WE HAVE HERE? ------------------------------- What we have is a plan to market a commercial system to shareware author's, disk vendors and BBS sysops. What legal worth does it have? None. The author's copyright and license must still be manually read. No matter what VENDINFO.DIZ says or how much the author and the sysop paid to use it... what the author's copyright license says in plain ASCII english is the only _legal_ document of copyright permissions and restrictions. What about the CDROM question posed above? Can you know if you can include an author's software on a CD if you have access to VENDINFO.DIZ? No. In two ways. First.. I repeat.. only the author's copyright license has any legal bearing. Second, because of court cases involving shareware used on CDROM disks.. any copyright lawyer.. and the Association of Shareware Professionals advices that if you intend to include any author's shareware on any CDROM you must contact the author directly and obtain written permission. VENDINFO.DIZ then is only an indication that chances are good if you write this author for permission you will get it. FURTHER UNSHAREABILITY OF SHAREWARE ----------------------------------- Recently, legal issues are shaping up to change shareware's publicly grown and accepted traditional definition from "legal to copy and share with others" to "try before you buy". In fact, as far as I know "Try-before-you-buy" is now _the_ legal definition of commercialized shareware, thanks to some court cases and recent changes in copyright law. Leave it to lawyers to take a definition grown out of common usage and traditional acceptance and turn it around to a purely money definition. Now missleading to the public, 'shareware' no longer even accepts the as shareware programs of which registration was not mandatory (List, PKZIP, and ARJ). It is the color of the glasses they wear. The name 'shareware' should be replaced with 'tryware' or something as it no longer fit's the primary definition of 'share-able'. I may be bias. I admit that I have said repeatedly that if you want to straighten out America you must first fire two thirds of all lawyers as needless .. and make the rest pledge to truth and justice before personal profits. Laws should be based on truth and justice and not by the the game of who can pay gain any profits. One problem.. in this situation.. is the many media by which shareware can now be copied and transferred for shareing. Many of the methods by which programs can be shared and distributed FidoNews 10-34 Page: 18 23 Aug 1993 now were not foreseen years ago. Are not covered in the author copyright license. And are by a means and media that would not exist if it did not make a commercial profit. At one time, years ago, the means for shareing were basically two methods. 1) Copy the disk and give it to another. 2) Upload it to a BBS or on-line service. By far uploading was the more productive. In both methods the means of distribution were paid for by someone else rather than the author.. and no one made what could be called a profit by this media of distribution (except for major on-line services who were the cause of many registrations for the author). Today exist such commercial means of distribution and shareing of shareware far beyond hand to hand copying and uploading to a BBS. Today exist the inexpensive CDROM which a sysop can plug into his BBS for users to download from. Organized file distribution, organized and paid for by dedicated fido sysops. Satellite and Internet availability, ham radio transfers, micro wave and you name it - it is coming on the horizon. How has the new means of shareing and distribution been treated? Lawyers have seen to it that if a specific media and method of distribution is not specifically given permission to by the author in his copyright license.. and that means or media makes money for someone, then if that means is used, the author can sue for copyright infringements. It has already been done and has set the precedents. The new VENDINFO.DIZ proposes to take this further in a binary coded file of information based on a document (55 pages long) of proposed structure. Taking this method of trying to cover every conceivable distribution permission, type and possible answer. By the shear size of the results can not reasonable be done in every-body-can-use-it-ASCII. It must be done in size saving binary. Yet it could be done in every-body-can-use-it-binary? instead of the proposed proprietary-you-pay-me-to-use-binary. As new methods of on-line connectivity come into being at a rapid pace - VENDINFO must grow and grow and beome more complicated at the same time the trend by lawyers is to make the 'try-before-you-buy' liscence more and more complicated. So there are three things I do not like about VENDINFO. 1) It appears to be primarily a commercial plan. 2) It further distances shareware into legal-mine-field-ware. 3) It treats the BBS world as if it is only commercial for-profit systems 4) Fidonets 23k sysops will have not uses for YADF (yet another description file). FidoNews 10-34 Page: 19 23 Aug 1993 Introducing RockNet! By Steve Powell (1:374/777) RockNet is about music. It is for musicians and fans alike, and its purpose is discussions on all phases of music, including record reviews, videos, recording techniques, theory and notation, concerts, buying and selling stereos, CD's, tapes, etc. and chit-chat about the kinds of music that YOU LIKE. There are *NO* so-called "adult" areas. RockNet is not =really= another network, at least in the sense of dealing with a separate nodelist, just a set of (presently 16) independant, music-related echoes distributed under a common banner. Here are the areas, so far: R_ALTERNATIVE Alternative and psychedelia R_BOOGIE All types of southern rock R_CONCERT Gig notices, including major concerts, clubs, etc. R_METAL All kinds of hard rock R_NEWAGE New Age music R_PROFESSIONAL Concerns of the professional musician R_REFERRAL Musicians and bands-wanted ads R_REVIEW Record reviews R_SALE Music goods for sale R_SOFT Soft rock and easy listening R_SUGGEST Suggestions for making RockNet a better place R_SYSOP Restricted to RockNet sysops R_TALK RockNet general chit-chat area R_TECHNOLOGY Equipment and music software R_THEORY Music theory and notation R_VIDEO Music videos and production For uplink information, send netmail to 1:374/777 and we'll set you up. Let's ROCK! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The ANSi Phallicy... Formation of an ANSi ART conference by Brian Rider THE iCE DEPARTMENT BBS (1:2470/12@FidoNet) Frost Byte THE iCE DEPARTMENT BBS (119:119/0@WyldNet) To start off, please stay alert to this document, there are numerous spelling, and grammar mistakes, for every one you find please award yourself a hardy handshake and 2 pats on the back. I am not follower of "high" english, nor am I a ancient philosopher. Disclaimer off. How many conferences allow the posting of ANSi? Well, to the best of my knowledge there is but one conference, BBS_ADS. I would like to say THANK YOU to Bob Johnstone, (moderator) to having the insight to allowing to graphics, however even his hands are tied because the screens still need to follow the topic of the conference. However, BBS FidoNews 10-34 Page: 20 23 Aug 1993 ADs are not the only type of ANSi art there is, trust me. You might be getting the hint as to what this article is about now... and your assumption is correct, I am trying to push a ANSi art confer- ence. Many people may gasp that this cannot be done in Fido... ANSi is bad juju!! Well to clue everyone else that just looks at this with ignorance to the topic, allow me to enlighten you. It seems to be the majorities idea that ANSi is bad for echomail. Others have the idea that ANSi will screw up their system. Even others may still wonder what ANSi is. (covering all standpoints) Well to disprove these phallicies, ANSi can in NO way harm ECHOMAIL bases if you are running proper software. There are NUMEROUS programs that disable the supposed ANSi bugs. Also many of the major software programs use their own ANSi drivers, and are immune. For the people that believe that ANSi will screw up their system, well it may, I am not placing a gun to your head TELLING you to pick up this conference, there is still some software that does not support ANSi in the message conferences. Then this conference is then not for you. ANSi is the crude colors that you see over many of the telecommunications services, which when welded by certain people can become truly ART! This conference is for people who are ANSi artists, who want to be artists, who just want to sit back and enjoy the screens, or people who just want to chat about ANSi. At first, I did not believe that this was going to be a realistic idea to start this conference, honestly how many people out there do ANSi screens... A GREAT DEAL after looking at some of the other networks, GT POWER, WWiV, and even some of the smaller nets have very active ANSi conferences for example. To request this conference, ANSI_ART please netmail Brian Rider @ 1:2470/12 stating a areafix Password, and I will have you hooked up ASAP. Expect to see it have a slower start than a normal conference, due to this being seamlessly unexplored territory. Brian Frost Byte.. Freq magicname ANSi from 1:2470/12 for proposed rules for conference, you will notice them to be very lax. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Compression again By:Kristian.Stark (1:260/710@fidonet.org -- Shark's Basin BBS) Ok... I've just about had it with this discussion on archive formats and the like, but.. Just the same, I feel compelled to continue on in the discussion, for the enlightenment of people perhaps... *grin* I think we can all come to an agreement about ARC as a compression method - it is slow, inefficient, and in general, quite useless FidoNews 10-34 Page: 21 23 Aug 1993 as a compression format when compared to newer compression programs. BUT, and this is a really big but, it is an accepted standard. Now, before you all start yelling at me about established standards, hear me out. The latest FidoNews included an article about how standards have to be flexible and accommodating to new technology - and I wholly agree with this. And, if you continue to read this, I think you will too - at least to some extent. I have been a member of FidoNet for about 7 years now, under different node numbers in different parts of the world. Until recently, almost all my expriences with Fido were from the standard MS-DOS standpoint - I had a DOS machine handy, and the software to run a node for it. This has recently changed. I still have access to a DOS machine (in fact, this is the same machine that I use now) but I do not run my node under DOS anymore. However, to the rest of the Fido community, there should have been no obvious change. Yes, my message headers and kludge lines are a bit different, and if you were to poll me (during ZMH only!) you would notice that I have Binkley answering the phone instead of FD as I did before. Why the change? I moved from DOS to run Linux as my primary operating system, and along with that came all of my FidoNet stuff... Still with me? Or are you way ahead of me? I do not have PKZIP available for my system. Yes, I do have other utilities, most notably the Info-ZIP version of zip and unzip available, and I make good use of them. My mail goes out to my point and hub using zip compressed archives, and I receive them the same way. However, I am but one node using software running under an OS other then DOS. How many other people are there in the world running a FidoNet system that does not run DOS? I would hazard a guess that it is a significant portion, and I would also guess that it is increasing as time goes on. Now, consider this. OS/2 does not have (somebody correct me if I am wrong here) a version of PKZIP available for it. There is a good alternative, once again Info-ZIP. MacOS does not have a ZIP archver for it. Linux uses Info-ZIP. Some DOS machines use Info-ZIP. VMS has a version of Info-ZIP. Get my drift? ARC, on the other hand, has been around for years. Something that has been hanging around in the dust for the most part, but on some systems that is really the only way to transfer information from one architecture to another in a compressed form. On all the systems that I have used, I've been able to find a copy of Arc somewhere. Maybe not a compiled run-time version, but I can't recall a system for which I have not been able to find the source code for and been able to compile it. (Well, with the exception of some of the *real* old hardware I've played with.) So, I guess the explanation for the use of Arc as a standard is quite well justified - almost everyone can process it. In the few cases where people cannot use arc, another mutually acceptible form has been found by the people for whom this is a problem. FidoNews 10-34 Page: 22 23 Aug 1993 FidoNet is supposed to be a community of computer users - not a community of DOS users - remember that we have to be able to talk to each other regardless of our different systems. Ok, so now that all of that is out of the way, I would like to make a proposal: A feasibility study =================== The Info-ZIP code has been ported to a large number of systems, and can be compiled for almost any platform, from what I can tell. I may be wrong, but from what I've seen, it is one of the most portable of the compression programs available to the community at large. I would like to propose that everybody start looking into getting a copy of the program for their machine, and start using that instead of PKZIP. Nothing against PKWare - they make a good product, and one that I have used for quite a while... However, for portability, Info-ZIP is far better. As I said before, it is available for a large number of platforms, including MS-DOS, OS/2, several varieties of Unix, VAX/VMS (OpenVMS) etc. I cannot say about the availability of the program for the Mac, but I suspect that somebody could fairly easily make a port. Why? If we really want to make a change int he archiving metheod (and the savings in transmission size / time would seem to warrant that) we are the ones with the burden of proof to find a package that is compatible across different platforms. So... If you have an OS that you think you cannot get a copy of Info-ZIP for, please let me know, and I'll do some digging around. Maybe we will be able to come together with a new compression standard. However, for the time being we are stuck with ARC, and quite honestly, I don't want to hear another word about the proposed change until a viable option that is acceptible to *ALL* nodes can be found. I retire now, ducking to avoid being broiled... :-) Kris (1:260/710@fidonet.org -- Shark's Basin BBS) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Take it to Iran, boys Greetings, Jack. 'Saw your article in FidoNews and could not agree more. In contemporary America the intrusion of religious superstitions into the secular public institutions is a difficult and costly problem to combat. FidoNews 10-34 Page: 23 23 Aug 1993 It's faintly annoying that we must also see it presented in our hobbies. The battles waged between warring religious factions is disgusting when observe by the critically thinking atheistical populace. That people would consider the debate about what drives the aliens space ships (or choose your own metaphore) to be reasonable is the height of silly. That they would fight among each other in environments where no one but the combatants cares about what drives the alien space ships is the height of annoying. I would not mind seeing both the charasmatic cult moderator (Steve Winter, by name) and the "hide over here" moderator out of FidoNews. Editor, however, publishes everything recieved -- and rightly so. The onus is upon the cult leader and the "hide here" moderator to realize how they appear (and why they _should_ care how they appear) and for them to take it somewhere else. Like Iran, maybe? IHS, Reverend Fredric Rice. : Fredric Rice - via mcws.fidonet.org Public Access (213)256-8371 : ARPA/INTERNET: Fredric.Rice@f890.n102.z1.fidonet.org : UUCP: ...!{elroy,oxy}!mcws!890!Fredric.Rice : Compu$erve: >internet:Fredric.Rice@f890.n102.z1.fidonet.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TIMES HAVEN'T CHANGED MUCH by Jack Decker I was just reading Fidonews Vol.10 No.32 and came across this little all-too-familiar blurb: > PRIME and HOLY_BIBLE, The Wholly Bible Echo > Steve Winter > FidoNet 1:18/98 > Those who want false christianity or a visit with infidels certainly > have several networks and echos available, but if any are interested > in "non-compromised" Apostolic Christianity, I encourage you to check > out PRIME. As far as the reprobate oneness nets go, I believe the > Lord allready rated them just a tad below a dunghill. [remainder of article deleted] I had rather hoped that with new editors of Fidonews, this recurring advertisement would not be allowed, or at least the writer would be required to tone down his language a bit. It strikes me as odd that you can make comments like this about members of certain faiths and no one says a word. I wonder what the response would have been had the same sort of language been used to describe those of a particular FidoNews 10-34 Page: 24 23 Aug 1993 race, national origin, gender, etc.? I suspect that in some countries it might have caused this issue of Fidonews to go into the bit bucket, since redistribution might well have violated some "hate crimes" legislation that exists in other jurisdictions. There are a couple things you should remember about any religious cult (I am NOT calling Mr. Winter's group a cult, but I will leave it to the reader to decide if there are similarities!). One is that virtually all of them insist that theirs is the ONLY group that God approves of. Even if their entire group consists of twenty people and was founded only three months ago, they believe that everyone else (including most everyone who has died before they arrived on the scene) is going straight to Hell. I personally do believe that there is a Hell to be feared, but I seriously doubt that the way out is SO narrow that only members of one small sect are going to find it. And besides, as any Christian familiar with the parable of the wheat and the tares realizes, it is very dangerous for mere mortals to sit in judgement of how God feels about others. The other thing is that cults usually have a strong leader who does not take kindly to opposing viewpoints (I am rather understating this, but if you recall the recent events in Waco, Texas you hopefully get my drift. That was an extreme case, but still...). Now, when Steve Winter was sending longer articles to Fidonews explaining his beliefs last year, I wrote an article entitled "Bashing the Beliefs of Others in FidoNews", which I had hoped was a reasoned rebuttal of some of Mr. Winter's articles. Following publication of that article, most of the netmail I received was favorable. The sole exception was what in my opinion was an extremely venomous netmail message from Steve Winter himself. I will quote only the first paragraph, since it sort of summarizes his response: "I believe that you are the false christian who posted the lies in the recent FidoNews. I can certainly understand why false christian filth are offended by the truth that exposes them as deceiving scum. Your cult is a putrid stench in the nostrils of God." Now, that would have been bad enough, but in spite of the inflammatory language used (which I'd hardly consider "Christian"), I tried to send him a reasoned response by netmail, one that I'd spent quite a bit of time writing. But when I tried to send the message, it came back to me, bounced by "MBounce V1.00". The first line of the bounce message said, "The following message was refused at the above address" and it came from Mr. Winter's address (which was also in the MSGID line of the bounce message). So apparently Mr. Winter felt that he could blast everyone else's beliefs (in both Fidonews and Netmail), but insulate himself from any replies using a robot bouncer. Draw your own conclusions. To top everything off, Mr. Winter filed a Policy Complaint against me, and seemed to very much want to have me kicked out of Fidonet (I think because I complained about his robot bouncer, but who knows the FidoNews 10-34 Page: 25 23 Aug 1993 real reason). In any case, the complaint was dismissed, which made him even more upset. I won't go into all the details, but the whole incident, in my opinion, painted Mr. Winter in a very unChristian light. The bottom line, again in my opinion, is that Mr. Winter is sowing the seeds of hatred against those who do not believe _precisely_ as he does. While I'm sure that he can pick Bible verses out of context to justify his behaviour (while ignoring entire chapters such as Romans 14), I would hope that the editors of Fidonews would not be inclined to let him preach essentially the same message on a semi-regular basis (by running the same "ad" over and over). Since I no longer have a presence in Fidonet, maybe my opinion on this doesn't count. But given the netmail I received last year, I know there are many others who feel the same way. By the way, just in closing (and on a totally different topic), I want to agree with the comment from Stanton McCandlish (and similar comments that have been expressed by others) about the size of the nodelist. One of the reasons I finally disconnected from Fidonet was due to the size of the Nodelist. This is another of those technical problems that folks have tried to solve using political means, and it hasn't worked (well, the Germans did manage to achieve a significant reduction in their part of the nodelist, but at what cost?!). The funny part is that those who defend retaining ARC as the compression method always say they are doing it for those using the "oddball" (usually older) machine that can't use any other form of unarchiver, yet many of those older machines have limited storage capacity, and may well choke on the sheer size of the nodelist long before the compression method becomes a problem, at the rate things are going. I said "way back when" that authors of software intended to be used in Fidonet ought to design their software with the idea that someday, not every valid node in Fidonet would be listed in the nodelist. Nobody listened. So now people are starting to look and say "You mean I'm using four or five megs of precious disk space just for nodelists!?!" and still we don't seem any closer to a solution. Strange... but, alas, true. Jack Decker - Internet address: ao944@yfn.ysu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The rest of the story (re "WHOLLY_BIBLE") Steve Winter FidoNet 1:18/98 I have come to regard Mark Wilson 1:379/1108 as a rather brazen liar. I hope that by my offering some facts, you might better understand why I am of that opinion. I believe that anyone reading the elist is well aware that the HOLY_BIBLE echo has been called "The Wholly Bible echo" for years. Mr Wilson stole the name for his echo tag from FidoNews 10-34 Page: 26 23 Aug 1993 my published echo description. Also his echo made it to the backbone AMAZINGLY FAST and remains there through what I feel is corruption and dishonesty among some of the upper *ECs. In last week's FNEWS Mr Wilson stated regarding his echo: MW>question. At any rate the reason that this echo was started, was due MW>to a netmail that arrived at my hub and at my NC simultaneously MW>requesting that I be cut from any links to a particular Bible MW>discussion echo. Now what was particularly troubling to me was that I MW>was not even linked to the echo, and had never been, so I appealed to What Mr Wilson failed to mention is that he had been a member of my PRIME network and had just been kicked off because of (among other things) his heretical teaching that Israel was the "Great Whore" in the book of Revelations. I simply sent a note to make sure that he was also cut from my HOLY_BIBLE echo as well. Do you see his statement in a different light now? That is part of why I regard him as a deceiver. He also said: MW> new Bible discussion echo, and upon finding two others, we MW> jointly started the echo that is called Wholly_Bible. Here is another interesting thing. The two that he "found" had just been kicked off of PRIME and HOLY_BIBLE because of disruptive behaviour and in general being deceiving religious filth. Now these guys did everything in their power to sleaze around and try to steal my HOLY_BIBLE echo, including frivilous policy complaints and netmail to most if not all *RCs, ZC, etc. When they could not steal the echo itself, they decided to steal the name from my echo description. So here we have a "supposed" oneness "christian" joining himself with a couple of trinitarians to steal an echo name and then be granted favors from certain false christian *EC(s). Their echo was rushed to the backbone. (while legitimate echos wait in line). MW> Moderators: Mark Wilson, 1:379/1108@FidoNet.org MW> Scott McCool, 1:291/7@FidoNet.org MW> Dave Wright, 1:395/22@FidoNet.org When they couldn't steal the echo, they just stole the description name. Don't believe me??? Dig out an old copy of the Echolist. Many BBSs have had my HOLY_BIBLE echo with the description "Wholly Bible" for a long time now. Dave Wright was engaging me in friendly conversation on PRIME while he was secretly netmailing the *C structure to try to steal HOLY_BIBLE. One of them was kind enough to cc me a copy and that was how I FidoNews 10-34 Page: 27 23 Aug 1993 found out about Mr Wright's activities. I hope that I have been eloquent enough that you will at least understand why it is my true belief that these guys are a bunch of lying, thieving, reprobate deceivers. I do not mean to imply that anyone does not have the right to start any kind of echo that they want, but stealing an echo name, and jumping to the head of the line to the backbone is another matter. (not to mention brazen lying) Steve Winter 1:18/98 moderator/founder HOLY_BIBLE(the WHOLLY BIBLE echo) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ======================================================================== Fidonews Information ======================================================================== ------- FIDONEWS MASTHEAD AND CONTACT INFORMATION ---------------- Editors: Sylvia Maxwell, Donald Tees, Tim Pozar Editors Emeritii: Thom Henderson, Dale Lovell, Vince Perriello, Tom Jennings IMPORTANT NOTE: The FidoNet address of the FidoNews BBS has been changed!!! Please make a note of this. "FidoNews" BBS FidoNet 1:1/23 BBS +1-519-570-4176, 300/1200/2400/14400/V.32bis/HST(DS) Internet addresses: Don & Sylvia (submission address) editor@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca Sylvia -- max@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca Donald -- donald@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca Tim -- pozar@kumr.lns.com (Postal Service mailing address) (have extreme patience) FidoNews 172 Duke St. E. Kitchener, Ontario Canada N2H 1A7 Published weekly by and for the members of the FidoNet international amateur electronic mail system. It is a compilation of individual articles contributed by their authors or their authorized agents. The contribution of articles to this compilation does not diminish the rights of the authors. Opinions expressed in these articles are those of the authors and not necessarily those of FidoNews. Authors retain copyright on individual works; otherwise FidoNews is copyright 1993 Sylvia Maxwell. All rights reserved. Duplication and/or FidoNews 10-34 Page: 28 23 Aug 1993 distribution permitted for noncommercial purposes only. For use in other circumstances, please contact the original authors, or FidoNews (we're easy). OBTAINING COPIES: The-most-recent-issue-ONLY of FidoNews in electronic form may be obtained from the FidoNews BBS via manual download or Wazoo FileRequest, or from various sites in the FidoNet and Internet. PRINTED COPIES may be obtained from Fido Software for $10.00US each PostPaid First Class within North America, or $13.00US elsewhere, mailed Air Mail. (US funds drawn upon a US bank only.) INTERNET USERS: FidoNews is available via FTP from ftp.ieee.org, in directory ~ftp/pub/fidonet/fidonews. If you have questions regarding FidoNet, please direct them to deitch@gisatl.fidonet.org, not the FidoNews BBS. (Be kind and patient; David Deitch is generously volunteering to handle FidoNet/Internet questions.) SUBMISSIONS: You are encouraged to submit articles for publication in FidoNews. Article submission requirements are contained in the file ARTSPEC.DOC, available from the FidoNews BBS, or Wazoo filerequestable from 1:1/23 as file "ARTSPEC.DOC". Please read it. "Fido", "FidoNet" and the dog-with-diskette are U.S. registered trademarks of Tom Jennings, and are used with permission. Asked what he thought of Western civilization, M.K. Gandhi said, "I think it would be an excellent idea". -- END ----------------------------------------------------------------------