;Date 14 Oct 92 14:52:26 From: Paul Schencke@1:135/340 To: Tom Jennings@1:125/111 Subject: hi Options: private ;Status: recv'd (read 2 times) ;FLAGS IMM >----------------------- Do not change this line -----------------------------< > Tom: > Policy4 is pretty specific about not routing encrypted > messages thru an intermediate system without prior > approval. This message is returned and will not be > delivered. Please discontinue sending such messages. > Scott Samet Sorry about that Tom. I just cannot understand what all this fuss is about. I would think that encrypting messages would take all legal obligations off the intermediate system, assuming that something illegal was being said in such messages, and that's not the case anyway. I have apologosed to Mr. Samet just to make sure. In the future, just make any replies a HOLD and I normally pick up fidonews once a week from you, so I would get any messages in a fairly quick manner, or you may send them thru Chris Baker(1:374/14),assuming that a link to him is available to you. I poll his system for mail almost daily anyway. My NEC (1:135/41) participates in that voluntary routing scheme that uses the BACKBONE, but I believe he feels the same way as Mr.Samet as far as encrypted mail goes. You know, this is really a shame, because people should really be cooperating to ensure other people's privacy. It seems to me, that this is the same group of people that later complain when their rights have been eroded , to the extent that they notice in their every day affairs. For the life of me, I fail to see what is so damaging about privacy to these people. For your use, I have enclosed in the next block my complete public key ring. Paul Schencke ps. Please keep this message between us, I have no intention to upset the local bosses for now. -P ;MSGID: 1:135/340@fidonet.org 900e5973 ;REPLY: 1:135/990 90060828 ;PID: FM 2.02 ;Date 14 Oct 92 13:03:30 From: Tom Jennings@1:125/111 To: Paul Schencke@1:135/340 Subject: re: hi Options: kill-sent private ;Status: (read 2 times) ;INTL 1:135/340 1:125/111 ;PID ReadMail ;MSGID RM1:125/111=2ADC1AA2 >----------------------- Do not change this line -----------------------------< PS> > delivered. Please discontinue sending such messages. PS> PS> > Scott Samet Policy 4 benefits noone but /0's. It also is quite clear that the NEC (I assume) is rummaging through people's mail. I would like to make a big deal of this. Unless you object, I'd like to use your message, but I will remove all references to your name, node number and anything else you think will identify you. If you think even this is too much exposure, please say so. I won't do anything until you msg me back. It would be nice though if you would inform PUBLIC_KEYS of this... it's exactly what this is all about. Freedom doesn't come to the meek... it must be worked for at every step. PS> fuss is about. I would think that encrypting messages PS> would take all legal obligations off the intermediate PS> system, assuming that something illegal was being said in PS> such messages, and that's not the case anyway. This is the crux of carrier vs. publisher status for in-transit email. PS> You know, this is really a shame, because people should PS> really be cooperating to ensure other people's privacy. PS> It seems to me, that this is the same group of people PS> that later complain when their rights have been eroded , PS> to the extent that they notice in their every day PS> affairs. PS> PS> For the life of me, I fail to see what is so damaging PS> about privacy to these people. It's not harmful, it's like assuming tht letters in envelopes are hiding something. Prior restraint. If we were doing something illegal, there are laws and systems to deal with this. Sysops ain't cops. * Origin: World Power Systems / FidoNews / San Francisco CA (1:125/111) ;Date 15 Oct 92 12:24:56 From: Tom Jennings@1:125/111 To: Paul Schencke@1:135/340 Subject: re: hi Options: kill-sent private ;Status: (read 1 times) ;INTL 1:135/340 1:125/111 ;PID ReadMail ;MSGID RM1:125/111=2ADD6318 >----------------------- Do not change this line -----------------------------< This message is not encrypted. It is private, host-routed email. It is signed with my PGP private key, and may be decoded by anyone with my public key, contained below. -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.0 mQBNAirHIV8AAAECAOE6hyvBZUslVOgi12u6d7/6yMIXX4aKIRcfV3wa/ysHl+ul d4agC1YW+YimYeA+/bXOBxH/Y/KRzT/tLvUlcRcABRG0MVRvbSBKZW5uaW5ncyA8 dG9takBmaWRvc3cuZmlkb25ldC5vcmcsIDE6MTI1LzExMT4= =dADc -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: 2.0 iQBVAgUAKt1iuc0/7S71JXEXAQE97AH/VuIdEPtNarMYOptNi6YGJwvMzNnIA6jP n4pPTHSHpvakxlyzpfBi4YbVKy+IPzHDeLHSUY55iQNd/Dlhcku4/6kGimIMcGxh aW50eHQudHh0AAAAACBQUz4gID4gZGVsaXZlcmVkLiAgUGxlYXNlIGRpc2NvbnRp bnVlIHNlbmRpbmcgc3VjaCBtZXNzYWdlcy4NCiBQUz4gDQogUFM+ICA+IFNjb3R0 IFNhbWV0DQogDQoNClBvbGljeSA0IGJlbmVmaXRzIG5vb25lIGJ1dCAvMCdzLiAN Cg0KSXQgYWxzbyBpcyBxdWl0ZSBjbGVhciB0aGF0IHRoZSBORUMgKEkgYXNzdW1l KSBpcyBydW1tYWdpbmcgdGhyb3VnaA0KcGVvcGxlJ3MgbWFpbC4gSSB3b3VsZCBs aWtlIHRvIG1ha2UgYSBiaWcgZGVhbCBvZiB0aGlzLiBVbmxlc3MgeW91DQpvYmpl Y3QsIEknZCBsaWtlIHRvIHVzZSB5b3VyIG1lc3NhZ2UsIGJ1dCBJIHdpbGwgcmVt b3ZlIGFsbA0KcmVmZXJlbmNlcyB0byB5b3VyIG5hbWUsIG5vZGUgbnVtYmVyIGFu ZCBhbnl0aGluZyBlbHNlIHlvdSB0aGluayB3aWxsDQppZGVudGlmeSB5b3UuIElm IHlvdSB0aGluayBldmVuIHRoaXMgaXMgdG9vIG11Y2ggZXhwb3N1cmUsIHBsZWFz ZSBzYXkNCnNvLiBJIHdvbid0IGRvIGFueXRoaW5nIHVudGlsIHlvdSBtc2cgbWUg YmFjay4NCg0KDQpJdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBuaWNlIHRob3VnaCBpZiB5b3Ugd291bGQg aW5mb3JtIFBVQkxJQ19LRVlTIG9mIHRoaXMuLi4NCml0J3MgZXhhY3RseSB3aGF0 IHRoaXMgaXMgYWxsIGFib3V0LiBGcmVlZG9tIGRvZXNuJ3QgY29tZSB0byB0aGUN Cm1lZWsuLi4gaXQgbXVzdCBiZSB3b3JrZWQgZm9yIGF0IGV2ZXJ5IHN0ZXAuDQoN Cg0KIFBTPiBmdXNzIGlzIGFib3V0LiBJIHdvdWxkIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgZW5jcnlw dGluZyBtZXNzYWdlcyANCiBQUz4gd291bGQgdGFrZSBhbGwgbGVnYWwgb2JsaWdh dGlvbnMgb2ZmIHRoZSBpbnRlcm1lZGlhdGUgDQogUFM+IHN5c3RlbSwgYXNzdW1p bmcgdGhhdCBzb21ldGhpbmcgaWxsZWdhbCB3YXMgYmVpbmcgc2FpZCBpbiANCiBQ Uz4gc3VjaCBtZXNzYWdlcywgYW5kIHRoYXQncyBub3QgdGhlIGNhc2UgYW55d2F5 LiANCg0KVGhpcyBpcyB0aGUgY3J1eCBvZiBjYXJyaWVyIHZzLiBwdWJsaXNoZXIg c3RhdHVzIGZvciBpbi10cmFuc2l0DQplbWFpbC4gDQoNCg0KIFBTPiBZb3Uga25v dywgdGhpcyBpcyByZWFsbHkgYSBzaGFtZSwgYmVjYXVzZSBwZW9wbGUgc2hvdWxk IA0KIFBTPiByZWFsbHkgYmUgY29vcGVyYXRpbmcgdG8gZW5zdXJlIG90aGVyIHBl b3BsZSdzIHByaXZhY3kuIA0KIFBTPiBJdCBzZWVtcyB0byBtZSwgdGhhdCB0aGlz IGlzIHRoZSBzYW1lIGdyb3VwIG9mIHBlb3BsZSANCiBQUz4gdGhhdCBsYXRlciBj b21wbGFpbiB3aGVuIHRoZWlyIHJpZ2h0cyBoYXZlIGJlZW4gZXJvZGVkICwgDQog UFM+IHRvIHRoZSBleHRlbnQgdGhhdCB0aGV5IG5vdGljZSBpbiB0aGVpciBldmVy eSBkYXkgDQogUFM+IGFmZmFpcnMuIA0KIFBTPiANCiBQUz4gRm9yIHRoZSBsaWZl IG9mIG1lLCBJIGZhaWwgdG8gc2VlIHdoYXQgaXMgc28gZGFtYWdpbmcgDQogUFM+ IGFib3V0IHByaXZhY3kgdG8gdGhlc2UgcGVvcGxlLiANCg0KSXQncyBub3QgaGFy bWZ1bCwgaXQncyBsaWtlIGFzc3VtaW5nIHRodCBsZXR0ZXJzIGluIGVudmVsb3Bl cyBhcmUNCmhpZGluZyBzb21ldGhpbmcuIFByaW9yIHJlc3RyYWludC4gSWYgd2Ug d2VyZSBkb2luZyBzb21ldGhpbmcNCmlsbGVnYWwsIHRoZXJlIGFyZSBsYXdzIGFu ZCBzeXN0ZW1zIHRvIGRlYWwgd2l0aCB0aGlzLiBTeXNvcHMgYWluJ3QNCmNvcHMu IA0KDQoNCg== =nc7K -----END PGP MESSAGE----- * Origin: World Power Systems / FidoNews / San Francisco CA (1:125/111) ;Date 14 Oct 92 06:05:26 From: Scott Samet@1:135/990 To: Tom Jennings@1:125/111 Subject: hi Options: kill-sent private ;Status: recv'd (read 3 times) ;MSGID: 1:135/990 90060827 ;PID: FM+ 2.1 >----------------------- Do not change this line -----------------------------< * Original to: Tom Jennings (1:125/111) cc: Paul Schencke Tom: Policy4 is pretty specific about not routing encrypted messages thru an intermediate system without prior approval. This message is returned and will not be delivered. Please discontinue sending such messages. Scott Samet > -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- > Version: 2.0 > hIwCH8u5b+eWBQEBA/46BQNg1YG86Nc5jaUDbIVQgRRUrd0Aqh8aCyGPXs4YnaCs > Wl5r1LeOEekeVklphoHrNLvOkg887wYxNIXFJ0ksbl6JnhS9XLjus11vCwUd52NZ > 5wSutkt70/mztxP8FOG5PRnMgl9e7FzX8to3yZ6OurXNERI9hoH885drKAPveqYA > AAGFUKfAh+Dosg4ky2FCVHS7RXnp6Ra4JUydDNYJsbwKkUYNVMAocKQDda8tV2Mv > H/Zug5rvuGJYvj7wFEvqnx59XWl06h1g7gVoVnwbEsBdg/eOFSY6jhzwXpwwWhXe > t99od4yUXhh7hpaJkWV8dvqO4qm42qOjPQit3hc7XaD3Un8gPfhcF3ksNkllQ3Xm > 9ZRXDvF7VC3GZXzPGTlUBUyXYPXZ1PhjLLJKFu9kldSFmezMHnnarZkxsKQI2p52 > XvwdcyWh+proxJNVlORRtG6Swq8aLeB0pYk5Mhj41XezbrHIBWyE8KTHwypxRwgb > bbcVg0rUooVyvXfx4D4h6wIx9UMvDpAQ2mnA9OeqBEYEqmcaeovG0sBMXJHCaZfl > ihKO+CWFFU1Ij6wRlkpNe43qkv7lchq8U/wUhRQ6zAwhGnxHZWKM8eYMOSUJM3ZN > zraA4MyJzbXHiYhgUhY5RBQVipTi8Lld3AbyssGAK+EMMoNyJJq1dlkikq1MNyWx > 7EIExxKVP5k= > =4QJK > -----END PGP MESSAGE----- > * Origin: World Power Systems / FidoNews / San Francisco CA (1:125/ > 111) ;Via FrontDoor 1:135/41, Oct 14 1992 at 22:32 ;Via QM 1:151/1003, Wed Oct 14 23:20 (v1.30) ;Via MsgTrack+ 1:13/13@fidonet, Thu Oct 15 1992 at 06:04 UTC ;Via QM 1:13/13, Thu Oct 15 06:05 UTC (v1.26/a03) ;Via MsgTrack+ 1:396/1@fidonet, Thu Oct 15 1992 at 09:04 UTC ;Via Squish/386 1.10 BETA/3 1:396/1.0, Thu Oct 15 1992 at 09:09 UTC ;Via MsgTrack 1:203/23@fidonet, Thu Oct 15 1992 at 05:12 ;Via Squish 1:203/23.0, Thu Oct 15 1992 at 09:12 UTC ;Via MsgTrack 1:125/125@fidonet, Fri Oct 16 1992 at 02:23 UTC ;Via Squish 1:125/125.0, Fri Oct 16 1992 at 02:24 UTC ;Via Squish 1:125/33.0, Fri Oct 16 1992 at 03:20 UTC ;Date 16 Oct 92 00:38:39 From: Tom Jennings@1:125/111 To: Marcos Della@1:125/180 Subject: re: Thanks! Options: kill-sent private ;Status: (read 2 times) ;INTL 1:125/180 1:125/111 ;PID ReadMail ;MSGID RM1:125/111=2ADE0F10 >----------------------- Do not change this line -----------------------------< MD> How goes the PGP debates? Also, think I should work on MD> the depository issure more or just drop it? Hey, go ahead, I think we need key repositories. I'm just opposed to centralization, in general, but specifically here. I think our needs are not that stringent IN GENERAL. Redundancy solves problems, and the neural-net of human social structures will solve detected problems, if the underlying mini-bureaucracies don't prevent them. I think relaxing errors (duplicate keys) to "excuse me I think you made a mistake" (eg. assume that someone screwed up when an identical ID appears, rather than assuming it's intentional (even if it is!)), an askance approach, works better. What we're doing is making a social structure explicit, the behind the scenes way we do business ("OK, I'll introduce you to so and so, tell 'em I sent you", at a meeting, you pull someone back a few paces and explain or make deals, etc, that is how things *really* work. Even screwed up companies can make good stuff, and we all know the MBA types can organize things into the ground. Hell, if bureaucracy was the solvent, Ford would be selling cars, and the FidoNet would have halted from lack of interest. New problems, new approaches... my guess is, after the enthusiasm dies, and everyone's sick of colliding keys and confusion, a few different repositories, possibly taking different approaches but sharing verified keyrings, will be used, and the keys you keep on hand will be relatively few. Gettting to that point however won't be the obvious path. Change happens one miserable step at a time, and along the way ya gotta make sure the Shits don't get their hands on things. By establish openness and trust as the coin o fthe realm, the bastards who work by conniving (lots of *Cs, for instance) can't work so well. Those things work best in the dark. Notice just who it is in FIdoNet that hates all this. They always seem to have a /0 on their address somewhere. Coincidence?! --- ReadMail * Origin: World Power Systems / FidoNews / San Francisco CA (1:125/111) ;Date 17 Oct 92 06:17:46 From: Scott Samet@1:135/990 To: Tom Jennings@1:125/111 Subject: hi Options: kill-sent private ;Status: recv'd (read 2 times) ;MSGID: 1:135/990 91863920 ;PID: FM+ 2.1 >----------------------- Do not change this line -----------------------------< > This message is not encrypted. It is private, host-routed email. It > is > signed with my PGP private key, and may be decoded by anyone with my > public key, contained below. I'm sorry Tom, but it cannot be read by anyone with your public key. They also need to have and install special software that's not part of the minimum FTS-001 coimpliant software set required for all Fidonet systems. I respectfully decline to pass this traffic thru my system, and I'm returning it. If you wish to send plain-text messages, so that I can verify that they comply with Policy4 requirements regarding illegal and commercial traffic, they will be delivered without problems. ;Via FrontDoor 1:135/41, Oct 17 1992 at 22:36 ;Via QM 1:151/1003, Sat Oct 17 23:28 (v1.30) ;Via MsgTrack+ 1:13/13@fidonet, Sun Oct 18 1992 at 07:29 UTC ;Via QM 1:13/13, Sun Oct 18 07:29 UTC (v1.26/a03) ;Via MsgTrack+ 1:396/1@fidonet, Sun Oct 18 1992 at 09:39 UTC ;Via Squish/386 1.10 BETA/3 1:396/1.0, Sun Oct 18 1992 at 09:58 UTC ;Via MsgTrack 1:203/23@fidonet, Sun Oct 18 1992 at 04:41 ;Via Squish 1:203/23.0, Sun Oct 18 1992 at 08:41 UTC ;Via MsgTrack 1:125/125@fidonet, Sun Oct 18 1992 at 13:33 UTC ;Via Squish 1:125/125.0, Sun Oct 18 1992 at 13:33 UTC ;Via TrackM 1:125/33.0@fidonet.org Sun 18 Oct 1992 09:34 ;Via Squish 1:125/33.0, Sun Oct 18 1992 at 16:34 UTC ;Date 19 Oct 92 01:11:34 From: Tom Jennings@1:125/111 To: scot samet@1:135/990 Subject: Your killing of messages Options: kill-sent ;Status: IN-TRANSIT (read 3 times) ;INTL 1:135/990 1:125/111 ;PID ReadMail ;MSGID RM1:125/111=2AE20B46 >----------------------- Do not change this line -----------------------------< Please be advised that your activities may be illegal under the ECPA. I'm going to persue this. It's my opinion you're overstepping your bounds in even patrolling email. --- ReadMail * Origin: World Power Systems / FidoNews / San Francisco CA (1:125/111) ;Date 21 Oct 92 06:48:55 From: Scott Samet@1:135/990 To: Tom Jennings@1:125/111 Subject: Your killing of messages Options: private ;Status: recv'd (read 2 times) ;MSGID: 1:135/990 93867f2d ;PID: FM+ 2.1 ;FLAGS DIR >----------------------- Do not change this line -----------------------------< > Please be advised that your activities may be illegal under the ECPA. > I'm going to persue this. It's my opinion you're overstepping your > bounds in even patrolling email. No mail has been killed. It's been returned as undeliverable because it fails to meet the requirements set forth in Policy4 for transmission. Policy4 clearly states that Fidonet mail is not private mail as defined under the law, that routing nodes have the right to review mail for illegal and commercial content, and that mail not be encrypted without approval of the nodes it's routed thru. As far as I'm concerned, your unauthorized transmission of encrypted mail thru my system is an unauthorized use of my computer, and a violation of Florida's Computer Crimes Laws. ;Date 20 Oct 92 23:29:00 From: Paul Schencke@1:125/180 To: Tom Jennings@1:125/111 Subject: net host meddling Options: ;Status: recv'd (read 2 times) ;MSGID: 1:135/340@fidonet.org 931758c0 ;PID: FM 2.02 >----------------------- Do not change this line -----------------------------< > I am going to persue this. I believe killing in- > transit messages is > illegal according to the ECPA, and I've informed the > net host of both > of these things. > ;Date 19 Oct 92 01:00:41 > From: Scott Samet@1:135/990 > To: Tom Jennings@1:125/111 > Subject: hi > Options: kill-sent private > ;Status: recv'd (read 2 times) Well, at this point it's kinda useless. Mr. Samet has informed the NET today that he quits his job as NC and to hold elctions pronto! I dunno if this had anything to do with it, but he seems to be a very tired man (tired of it all, I guess). In any case, I bet you some floppies this will not be the last time we see such a case. -P --- FMail 0.92 * Origin: Out Of Bounds!, Hialeah, FL (1:135/340) SEEN-BY: 100/520 102/890 105/36 125/111 125 180 185 135/71 340 163/438 170/109 SEEN-BY: 216/21 234/1 253/513 261/1136 285/27 312/2 374/14 26 48 98 377/14 SEEN-BY: 396/1 2200/101 ;PATH: 135/340 374/14 125/180